# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/421 "2018-02-24T20:21:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Just to follow up on **HurricaneDitka** ’s response to my remark, though it’s already been amply rebutted by others: > > No, Utah’s allowing qualified gun-owning teachers to voluntarily concealed-carry on school grounds if they want to is not at all the same as a nationwide **policy** of deliberately arming a large percentage of teachers as a purported remedy for gun violence in schools. (thanks for responding, your were the one I most hoped to hear back from) As a followup: So what if we just extended Utah’s policy to the rest of the nation? Could you accept that? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/422 "2018-02-24T20:24:47Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Maybe instead of arming teachers, an alternative solution would be to require each classroom to have a secondary exit in case of emergency. So rather than being trapped in the classroom, they can remove a window or whatever and flee the school. Not only will it help for a shooter situation, but it could be used in case of fire or something like that. First-floor classrooms, like mine, that have windows that open already have a secondary exit of sorts. The problem is the second floor. You don’t want fire escapes up to every room–not just because of the expense, but because it makes it easy for a shooter to bypass the main entrance, with its security cameras, etc., and attack a classroom from outside. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/423 "2018-02-24T20:27:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s unlikely that bonuses are given to teachers for carrying at work. If they were, I suspect some would carry primarily for the purpose of receiving the extra pay, and I’d rather not have that. If we are going to cede the classroom to the people with guns to fight it out, shouldn’t we give all teachers a bonus for hazardous duty pay? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/424 "2018-02-24T20:33:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > (thanks for responding, your were the one I most hoped to hear back from) > > As a followup: So what if we just extended Utah’s policy to the rest of the nation? Could you accept that? Perhaps I’ll start another thread about it, but I have to ask: **HurricaneDitka** , I’m not going to put words in your mouth, but I will say that it seems most Republicans and/or conservatives and/or pro-gun people are against national gun laws. Sources: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102505823.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102505823.html) > [@](#): > > For decades, the National Rifle Association has lobbied successfully to block all attempts at such computerization, arguing against any national registry of firearm ownership. > **[Fact Check: The Gun Registry Red Herring | TIME.com](https://swampland.time.com/2013/01/24/fact-check-the-gun-registry-red-herring/)** > > Why does Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association, claim that Obama wants a national federal registry for guns? > [@](#): > > He wants to put every private, personal transaction under the thumb of the federal government, and he wants to keep all those names in a massive federal registry. There are only two reasons for that federal list of gun owners —to tax them or take them. > **[Federal Gun Registry Replaces Death Panels As Right-Wing Myth](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/federal-gun-registry_n_3101204)** > > Federal Gun Registry Replaces Death Panels As Right-Wing Myth > [@](#): > > In the days leading up to Wednesday’s Senate vote on gun legislation amendments, the talking point that has taken off most amongst conservatives as a reason to oppose the background check compromise is that it would lead to a national database of gun owners. I’m not saying you in particular are against national regulations regarding guns, because I don’t know. But there is evidence that pro-gun people are. My question is if pro-gun people are against a national regulation such as a database, why would they be for a Utah-like regulation? It seems to me that would be “government overreach”. Care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/425 "2018-02-24T20:37:34Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > … there is evidence that pro-gun people are. My question is if pro-gun people are against a national regulation such as a database, why would they be for a Utah-like regulation? > > It seems to me that would be “government overreach”. Care to comment? It could be accomplished at the state level, by having the other states adopt a policy like Utah’s. There’s no need to involve Congress in it. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/426 "2018-02-24T20:41:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It could be accomplished at the state level, by having the other states adopt a policy like Utah’s. There’s no need to involve Congress in it. Which could lead to a confusing hodge-podge of rules, regulations, and laws. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/427 "2018-02-24T20:53:10Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > Which could lead to a confusing hodge-podge of rules, regulations, and laws. We _already_ have “a confusing hodge-podge of rules, regulations, and laws”, and my proposed solution certainly wouldn’t resolve that, but it’s not going to “lead to” it either or make it any worse, as we’re already there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/428 "2018-02-24T22:05:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > (thanks for responding, your were the one I most hoped to hear back from) > > As a followup: So what if we just extended Utah’s policy to the rest of the nation? Could you accept that? “Accept” **for what purpose**? What are you proposing that such an “extension” would or should accomplish? If you advocate it simply on the grounds that you think CCW permit holders should be able to bring guns to schools as to other public places, what’s the relevance of that to the problem of school shootings? If you’re claiming that it would somehow reduce the incidence of school shootings, on what grounds are you making that claim? To clarify, I’m looking at this as a generally pro-gun-ownership advocate of Second Amendment repeal. In brief, I think that the majority of gun ownership is reasonably safe (or can fairly easily be made so), but that gun ownership as a fundamental constitutional right is long-outdated bullshit. AFAICT, the overall strategy of gun-rights ideologues in response to public anger about gun violence is to try to deflect measures for stronger regulation of guns by arguing that largely unpopular and impractical alternatives should be implemented instead. They don’t actually **want** such alternatives (e.g., “train and arm at least 20% of all schoolteachers”) implemented, because if they don’t work in practice then that will be seen as weakening the arguments against regulation. They just want to keep proposing them, in order to look as though they’re taking public concerns about gun violence seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/429 "2018-02-24T22:08:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Concealed carry pretty much means pistols. Handguns. Against a madman armed with a military-grade weapon. There are words for that kind of behavior. “Courageous” is one, “stupid” is another. Long guns are “aim”, pistols are “general direction”. Most likely result: teacher fires at shooter, shooter kills teacher. > > I don’t think this is a good idea. Mmmm, no. Add to this that the shooter will have just practiced, the teacher not so much. My wife is in a mystery writer’s group who visited the firing range of a police department so that they could get experience firing weapons. The LEO who guided them said that she has to practice once a week, and still is not too confident on her marksmanship, while someone who didn’t practice is probably more dangerous than helpful. In Police Squad Drebbin tended to hit civilians in his gun battles. This might be a more accurate model than the teacher as John Wayne model Trump and others like. You just know that if this nonsense were ever implemented, and failed as badly as it is sure to fail, the NRA response would be that all teachers must have rapid fire weapons in their desks. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/430 "2018-02-24T22:09:16Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Self defense is one thing. Pretending to be Rambo is another. That’s one thing I keep hammering people about: the NRA has managed to equate “self-defense” with “guns” so that in many people’s minds “no gun” = “no defense”, and that’s simply not true. There are any number of ways to inflict pain and death on another human being with using a gun. I really try and not let anyone get away with that kind of thing in IRL discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/431 "2018-02-24T22:11:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You just know that if this nonsense were ever implemented, and failed as badly as it is sure to fail, the NRA response would be that all teachers must have rapid fire weapons in their desks. “Pray and spray is the only way” would be their mantra. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/432 "2018-02-24T22:17:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s one thing I keep hammering people about: the NRA has managed to equate “self-defense” with “guns” so that in many people’s minds “no gun” = “no defense”, and that’s simply not true. There are any number of ways to inflict pain and death on another human being with using a gun. I really try and not let anyone get away with that kind of thing in IRL discussions. I don’t get that either. They insist that if we don’t have guns in school, then the only option is to cower and whimper. It makes me wonder if that means that, if they were ever deprived of their gun, then they would be cowering and whimpering, as that’s the only way that their accusations makes sense. And if being deprived of an item causes you that much distress, then you do not have a healthy relationship with that item. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/433 "2018-02-24T22:24:53Z")
Utah teachers don’t take an “active shooter” course, do they? They just have standard CCW permit. Is there a reason to think this policy is working in any way before it gets rolled out nationwide? Are 18 yr old students allowed CCW on school property? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/434 "2018-02-24T23:02:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Utah teachers don’t take an “active shooter” course, do they? They just have standard CCW permit. To be specific, Utah teachers are not _required_ to take an “active shooter” course. Some of them (a relatively small # I would guess) probably _have_ “taken an active shooter course” or received some tactical training at some point. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Is there a reason to think this policy is working in any way before it gets rolled out nationwide? No one has died in a school shooting in Utah. To be frank, school shootings are thankfully rare-enough events that good, meaningful statistical analysis is difficult, but I don’t think my “no one has died in a school shooting in Utah” is that far off from the “no mass shootings in Australia since the buyback”. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Are 18 yr old students allowed CCW on school property? Not in K-12, but yes at colleges. This is a relatively new thing for Utah. It was only a couple of years ago that we passed a “[provisional CFP](https://bci.utah.gov/provisional-firearm-permit-frequently-asked-questions/)” law for 18-20-year-olds. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/435 "2018-02-24T23:05:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s one thing I keep hammering people about: the NRA has managed to equate “self-defense” with “guns” so that in many people’s minds “no gun” = “no defense”, and that’s simply not true. There are any number of ways to inflict pain and death on another human being with using a gun. I really try and not let anyone get away with that kind of thing in IRL discussions. I completely agree. As a woman living alone on acreage in the middle of nowhere and being far out of reach of any 911 response, I’ve evolved a multitude of strategies to deal with situations that may require self-defense. At the very bottom of the list is using a gun, and there are a lot of choices between the top and bottom of the list. I sleep just fine. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/436 "2018-02-24T23:29:16Z")
Utah is not really a great test case, as it has a low violent crime rate, roughly half that of Florida, where gun laws are also pretty lenient. And since those laws have been in place for a very long time, it’s impossible to say they’ve had any impact in terms of school shootings. You may say there’s no connection between violent crime rates and school shootings but the point is this: we can’t know if Utah has escaped school shootings because some (no info on how many) teachers may carry at school or if that’s the case because it doesn’t have much violent crime anyway for other reasons. What would be needed to make the case is a state that has had quite a few school shootings and goes from no-carry to concealed-carry, has stats to back that up (No extrapolating or guessing.), has no other demographic, legal, academic, or social changes that could impact school shootings, and experiences either a significant decrease or significant increase in school shootings over a period of years. And, of course, that wouldn’t be an airtight test case. All this makes me queasy as I consider those statistics represent kids. As a teacher, I’d feel a lot safer in a building that makes it very difficult for a potential shooter to get in than one in which other teachers are armed. I’d feel my students were safer, too. But those measures would require spending that most arming-teachers advocates and anti-taxers wouldn’t approve. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/437 "2018-02-24T23:51:25Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Utah is not really a great test case, as it has a low violent crime rate, roughly half that of Florida, where gun laws are also pretty lenient. And since those laws have been in place for a very long time, it’s impossible to say they’ve had any impact in terms of school shootings. You may say there’s no connection between violent crime rates and school shootings but the point is this: we can’t know if Utah has escaped school shootings because some (no info on how many) teachers may carry at school or if that’s the case because it doesn’t have much violent crime anyway for other reasons. > > What would be needed to make the case is a state that has had quite a few school shootings and goes from no-carry to concealed-carry, has stats to back that up (No extrapolating or guessing.), has no other demographic, legal, academic, or social changes that could impact school shootings, and experiences either a significant decrease or significant increase in school shootings over a period of years. And, of course, that wouldn’t be an airtight test case. > > All this makes me queasy as I consider those statistics represent kids. As a teacher, I’d feel a lot safer in a building that makes it very difficult for a potential shooter to get in than one in which other teachers are armed. I’d feel my students were safer, too. But those measures would require spending that most arming-teachers advocates and anti-taxers wouldn’t approve. And you have to balance the statistical reduction in children killed by a lessening of school shootings against the number of firearm related incidents that happen as a result of these policies. The first stat will be hard to quantify, the second, in my speculation, will be all too easy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/438 "2018-02-25T00:04:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No one has died in a school shooting in Utah. To be frank, school shootings are thankfully rare-enough events that good, meaningful statistical analysis is difficult, but I don’t think my “no one has died in a school shooting in Utah” is that far off from the “no mass shootings in Australia since the buyback”. … and DC’s strict gun laws have prevented school mass murders, too, right? Seems like the same logic as Utah’s gun laws prevented school shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/439 "2018-02-25T03:06:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No one has died in a school shooting in Utah. To be frank, school shootings are thankfully rare-enough events that good, meaningful statistical analysis is difficult, but I don’t think my “no one has died in a school shooting in Utah” is that far off from the “no mass shootings in Australia since the buyback”. You’re going to have to explain the equivalency between those two statements, because I certainly can’t follow your logic. Utah became a state in 1896. Thus: 1896-2000: Number of deaths due to school shootings in Utah: 0 2000: Teachers allowed to conceal-carry in Utah schools. 2000-2018: Number of deaths due to school shootings in Utah: 0 Now, according to [this](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/australia-hasnt-had-fatal-mass-shooting-since-1996-heres-what-did/340345002/) article: 1979-1996: Number of fatal mass shootings in Australia: 13 1996: Australian rapid-fire firearms ban and buyback 1996-2018: Number of fatal mass shootings in Australia: 0 Sorry, but I fail to see the similarities between these situations. Please enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/440 "2018-02-25T15:40:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I think we’re on exactly the same page on this point. I think it’s unlikely that bonuses are given to teachers for carrying at work. If they were, I suspect some would carry primarily for the purpose of receiving the extra pay, and I’d rather not have that. You’re entire premise is flawed and I think it’s deliberate disingenuous. Utah has never had a school shooting fatality. You are making a lot of that fact. Your are crediting Utah law and policy. You are leaving out the FACT that Utah’s record on guns and schools isn’t that special. Over twenty other states have never had a school shooting fatality. And there are states that have never had a single school- related gun incident. Utah isn’t even on that list. This is an interesting site > **[United States school shootings and firearm incidents, 1990-present](https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_school_shootings,_1990-present#Northeast)** > > Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics The following states have never had any form of school shooting incidents, period. Delaware Idaho Kansas Massachusetts New Hampshire New Jersey Montana Rhode Island West Virginia South Dakota Rhode Island Now this site lists all shooting incidents taking place on or near school property. Including things like parking lot suicides. Utah’s had a couple, BTW. That’s why they aren’t on the above list. But if I go through state by state, the following states have not had a fatal school shooting, discounting suicides. Maine New York Illinois Iowa North Dakota Louisiana Maryland North Carolina Virginia Hawaii Utah Wyoming So, yes … Utah made this list, along with about half the other states in the country. Claiming that Utah has a better track record with regards to school shootings is disingenuous. Period. Whether or not you try to relate it to gun policy. And if I went back through the remaining states I could make another long a list of states that have never had a school shooting with multiple fatalities inside the building during school hours.Because most of the incidents seemed to be single victim grudge killings. Or incidents that happened in parking lot after hours. Oh, what the heck Indiana Michigan - 3 fatal incidents but in one the perp was 6, one was a gang drive-by and the third involved only adult personnel Missouri- 1 single fatality incident, domestic dispute in parking lot Nebraska - 1 single fatality incident, kid killed faculty member Wisconsin Vermont Alabama Georgia Oklahoma South Carolina Texas Nevada So, why again is Utah so special that everyone should adopt their policies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=23)