# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/501 "2018-02-27T17:44:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not aware of this happening yet in any of the school districts it’s currently allowed. The probability of it happening with one armed teacher may be small, but when you multiply it by enough teachers packing heat, it becomes much more probable. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Also something I’m not aware of happening in any school districts its currently allowed. Frankly, if I could _pay_ the next school shooter to leave his long gun at home and try this approach, I would. True that it would be more difficult to pull off, but we would also be allowing him to avoid the time and expense of buying a weapon. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Stranger things have happened. And, despite your stereotyping, teachers aren’t all ‘old ladies’. Oh, I know. We used to sit in the front row in Bio and watch Miss Lee in her amazing miniskirts. But you’re talking about arming people who may not be great physical specimens and untrained in the use of firearms and not used to high pressure life or death situations. I think arming teachers is like giving steak to a newborn. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m pretty sure the school is going to get sued in the aftermath of a school shooting no matter what. Adding more guns into the mix is going to increase the odds of a shooting incident happening. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/502 "2018-02-27T18:10:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The probability of it happening with one armed teacher may be small, but when you multiply it by enough teachers packing heat, it becomes much more probable. We’re not just talking about one armed teacher though. Probably thousands of teachers have been packing at school for many years now. The problems that you’re worried about simply haven’t turned out to be very common. This is similar to the arguments made against concealed-carry permits in general: “there will be road rage shootings, shootouts over parking spots, etc”. While I suspect there may have been a few here or there, overall the concerns seem to have been largely overblown, and people recognize that today. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > True that it would be more difficult to pull off, but we would also be allowing him to avoid the time and expense of buying a weapon. The difference is that your average concealed-carry gun is a small handgun, with limited ammo capacity, and relatively slow and unimpressive bullets. Sure, it’s possible it could be used to kill some people, and in the wrong hands it might be put to bad uses, but overall, if I had a choice between a school shooter that brought a few hundred rounds of reloads with him, practiced at the range with his rifle beforehand, and came in shooting, vs having him start his would-be spree by trying to wrestle a relatively small and unimpressive handgun away from an armed teacher, which if he succeeds leaves him with few / no reloads and a lack of familiarity with the firearm, I’ll take the latter. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh, I know. We used to sit in the front row in Bio and watch Miss Lee in her amazing miniskirts. But you’re talking about arming people who may not be great physical specimens and untrained in the use of firearms and not used to high pressure life or death situations. I think arming teachers is like giving steak to a newborn. I don’t want to “arm” teachers, or give them the firearm equivalent of steak to a newborn. I want concealed-carry permit holders, that are not “newborns” in the realm of firearms, to be allowed to carry while at work. I agree that handing out firearms during the onboarding process would not be ideal. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/503 "2018-02-27T18:30:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We’re not just talking about one armed teacher though. Probably thousands of teachers have been packing at school for many years now. The problems that you’re worried about simply haven’t turned out to be very common. This is similar to the arguments made against concealed-carry permits in general: “there will be road rage shootings, shootouts over parking spots, etc”. While I suspect there may have been a few here or there, overall the concerns seem to have been largely overblown, and people recognize that today. Right, and you acknowledge that they are here and there. Do you not acknowledge that with more gun, there will be more both here and there? > [@](#): > > The difference is that your average concealed-carry gun is a small handgun, with limited ammo capacity, and relatively slow and unimpressive bullets. Sure, it’s possible it could be used to kill some people, and in the wrong hands it might be put to bad uses, but overall, if I had a choice between a school shooter that brought a few hundred rounds of reloads with him, practiced at the range with his rifle beforehand, and came in shooting, vs having him start his would-be spree by trying to wrestle a relatively small and unimpressive handgun away from an armed teacher, which if he succeeds leaves him with few / no reloads and a lack of familiarity with the firearm, I’ll take the latter. I don’t think it’s a matter of either/or. The kid isn’t thinking, “Oh, I don’t have to bring my AR-15 with me to kill all the other kids, the teacher already has a gun.” The concern is that it is a crime of convenience. A kid gets unruly or agitated, and sees that he can take his teacher’s gun. Kill the teacher, maybe a few students he doesn’t like. Yes, it would be a smaller spree than if he had premeditated and brought an assault weapon, but, it won’t actually prevent someone who wants to bring an assault weapon from doing so. Instead, it just created more opportunities for less thought out crimes of anger or passion. > [@](#): > > I don’t want to “arm” teachers, or give them the firearm equivalent of steak to a newborn. I want concealed-carry permit holders, that are not “newborns” in the realm of firearms, to be allowed to carry while at work. I agree that handing out firearms during the onboarding process would not be ideal. Concealed carry by itself doesn’t say anything about the maturity of the permit holder. You can have a CCW with just a few hours of class time with a gun that you’ve barely shot. We dedicate this is a good idea, we need much better training than what a CCW requires. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/504 "2018-02-27T18:37:48Z")
And, once again: Why concealed? What deterrent value does that have? Or is the constant repetition a tacit acknowledgment that open carry would be more of an enticement than a deterrent? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/505 "2018-02-27T18:40:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And, once again: Why concealed? What deterrent value does that have? Or is the constant repetition a tacit acknowledgment that open carry would be more of an enticement than a deterrent? I think it’d be less of a distraction for people that are uncomfortable around firearms if it were concealed. Some people get hysterical when they see a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/506 "2018-02-27T18:45:31Z")
And some people get hysterical at the idea of not having their gun on them… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/507 "2018-02-27T18:47:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, and you acknowledge that they are here and there. Do you not acknowledge that with more gun, there will be more both here and there? Well in the case of teachers, there haven’t been _any_ cases of them drawing down on students for being unruly (so far as I know), or even one instance of a “crime of convenience” where an angry student seizes a teacher’s gun and shoots people (again, so far as I know). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Concealed carry by itself doesn’t say anything about the maturity of the permit holder. You can have a CCW with just a few hours of class time with a gun that you’ve barely shot. I’d suggest that after 4-16 hours of training one is no longer the firearms version of a “newborn” … > [@k9bfriender](#): > > We dedicate this is a good idea, we need much better training than what a CCW requires. … but I wouldn’t be opposed to a district saying, "we’re going to allow this, if you also complete training X and Y or Z. (I think that’s what you were getting at here) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/508 "2018-02-27T18:53:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’d be less of a distraction for people that are uncomfortable around firearms if it were concealed. Some people get hysterical when they see a gun. “Hysterical”? :dubious: The \*sane \*reaction is fear - not so much of the gun but of the carrier, or the seizer. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/509 "2018-02-27T19:40:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’d be less of a distraction for people that are uncomfortable around firearms if it were concealed. Some people get hysterical when they see a gun. Just want to say that comments like this, where you are reading minds, are not helpful. People may get nervous, they may not be comfortable, they may not have much faith or trust in the person controlling the gun, but to call people hysterical means that you are buying into the whole “gun control advocates are actually just hoplophobes.” For instance. I have a friend that I know has guns. I go over to his house fairly often, and it doesn’t bother me, as he is responsible with them, and has them locked up in a safe or directly in his control. I have another friend that has at least 2 guns that I know of, because they are sitting on his coffee table when I come in. I don’t visit him very often, is that because I am hysterical when I see a gun? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well in the case of teachers, there haven’t been _any_ cases of them drawing down on students for being unruly (so far as I know), or even one instance of a “crime of convenience” where an angry student seizes a teacher’s gun and shoots people (again, so far as I know). Kids get into physical altercations with their teachers on a regular basis. I saw at least a dozen or more fights during my tenure as a student, where the student actually physically contacted the teacher in some way. To be fair, I never saw them get knocked out or anything, but, had they been armed, they either would have/should have defended themselves with their gun, or they could have had the gun taken away from them. Having the gun in the room raises the stakes, from a suspension/expulsion to bullets. > [@](#): > > I’d suggest that after 4-16 hours of training one is no longer the firearms version of a “newborn” … At that point, sure, not a newborn, but barely a toddler, either. > [@](#): > > … but I wouldn’t be opposed to a district saying, "we’re going to allow this, if you also complete training X and Y or Z. (I think that’s what you were getting at here) There are some people that it may be appropriate to allow to be armed. Military, and police who retire from the force and start teaching, and maybe teachers with extensive gun training. But, not only should it be far more than 4-16 hours, it should be something that is recertified on a regular basis as well. No, I do not trust that someone with 4-16 hours of training can properly deal with a life and death situation. I also do not feel that they are able to evaluate when there is a life and death situation, and may end up shooting people for being unruly. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/510 "2018-02-27T19:51:38Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > I don’t agree that the gun shop guy has a solution for training. > > Training has to be far more than figuring out how to get the safety off and hit a target. > > Training would have to include everything that goes into managing an active shooter event. > > It’s not just a matter of opening fire on someone you see with a gun. Target practice doesn’t prepare a teacher to go up against one of his/her students who has an AR-15 in a populated school environment. > > Beyond that, my daughter is a high school teacher, and her take is that every teacher at her school would oppose this idea of adding more guns to the school environment for a number of reasons. Oh, I’m with you there. He’s a wing nut, but wing nuts have taken control of the board. It’s a case in point for why people shouldn’t ignore school board elections. I think out of a staff of about 60, there might be maybe 2 teachers who’d volunteer to carry, and this is a high school in one of the most heavily-armed states in the U.S. Most teachers own guns. They just see the issues and dangers of having one in the classroom and recognize how ineffective they’re likely to be in a real-life situation. I don’t know who Mr. Wing Nut is thinking would do the training. If teachers have CCW permits (a requirement of the policy), they already know how to shoot a gun. Maybe he’s thinking off-duty law-enforcement, or maybe he’s thinking a bunch of chuckleheads playing SWAT team. The majority of those speaking up oppose the policy, but another wing nut says he doesn’t believe they represent the majority of the community. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/511 "2018-02-27T19:55:56Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > [Israel](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21714) What are you talking about? There is ZERO in that article about\* arming \*teachers? It talks about weapons training, against possible terrorist (e.g Palestinian) attacks. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/512 "2018-02-27T20:00:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We’re not just talking about one armed teacher though. Probably thousands of teachers have been packing at school for many years now. I disagree. Even before gun-free school zones, teachers were not packing heat in my district (Yes, I’m that old.), and it’s in an area with one of the highest gun-per-capita rates in the country. Are you figuring throughout Utah history, a total of thousands of teachers were packing at school? Again, I’d need stats. Since Utah doesn’t ask, I doubt those stats exist. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/513 "2018-02-27T20:31:54Z")
Arming teachers is one of the dumbest ideas I can think of. A weapon in the hand of a person who isn’t willing to pull the trigger and kill the person the weapon is aimed at is far worse than useful, it is a liability. Back in my coke dealing days, I definitely had more than one weapon pointed at me. On no less than three separate occasions, I disarmed the person wielding the weapon because although they were truly desperate for more cocaine, they were not willing to actually inflict violence on me to get it. Two of the three then found out the hard way that I had no similar scruples as I proceeded to disarm them and then use their own weapon against them. (They lived.) The third and much smarter one ran away. I’d wager 95% + of all the teachers I had in my life didn’t have it in them to kill a human being. They mostly got into teaching because they wanted to make a positive difference in young people’s lives. They have compassion for the students they teach. I firmly believe that compassion will end up killing them if you give them all guns. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/514 "2018-02-27T20:34:20Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I disagree. Even before gun-free school zones, teachers were not packing heat in my district (Yes, I’m that old.), and it’s in an area with one of the highest gun-per-capita rates in the country. Are you figuring throughout Utah history, a total of thousands of teachers were packing at school? Again, I’d need stats. Since Utah doesn’t ask, I doubt those stats exist. Without knowing your state and the year(s), I could only guess. Was concealed carry legal there at the time? Were permits generally available (shall-issue) back then? You can [look back a couple of pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20809725#post20809725) to some discussion on my estimate of the numbers for Utah. You’re right that there’s no precise count available (at least, as far as I’m aware). It’s worth mentioning here that Utah isn’t the only place this has been done (but I’m not aware of a state where teachers-packing is more widespread than in Utah). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/515 "2018-02-27T20:35:39Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > … I’d wager 95% + of all the teachers I had in my life didn’t have it in them to kill a human being. They mostly got into teaching because they wanted to make a positive difference in young people’s lives. They have compassion for the students they teach. I firmly believe that compassion will end up killing them if you give them all guns. I don’t think there’s a serious proposal to “give them _all_ guns”. That’s a strawman, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/516 "2018-02-27T20:53:06Z")
I guess it’s much easier to simply call my argument a strawman than actually address a single point I made, right? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/517 "2018-02-27T20:57:59Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > I guess it’s much easier to simply call my argument a strawman than actually address a single point I made, right? AFAICT, these were the two points you made (generously treating them as separate points): > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > … A weapon in the hand of a person who isn’t willing to pull the trigger and kill the person the weapon is aimed at is far worse than useful, it is a liability. … I agree. Let’s not encourage people that aren’t willing to pull the trigger to carry guns. > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > … I’d wager 95% + of all the teachers I had in my life didn’t have it in them to kill a human being. … OK, what if we just had the other 5% carry in school? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/518 "2018-02-27T21:09:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’d be less of a distraction for people that are uncomfortable around firearms if it were concealed. Some people get hysterical when they see a gun. How is a woman wearing a typical blouse, skirt and pumps going to conceal a gun? Are armed teachers going to have to wear coats and cowboy boots to have requisite hiding places? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/519 "2018-02-27T21:11:28Z")
> [@](#): > > …OK, what if we just had the other 5% carry in school? We could certainly test for that. I would not approve, as if that ever mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/520 "2018-02-27T21:13:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > OK, what if we just had the other 5% carry in school? That’s still dumb, because about at least 20% of people wrongly think they are in that 5%. Do you think those two morons I attacked with their own weapons thought they would freeze when shit got real? I know for a fact they didn’t, but they were still very wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=27)