# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/521 "2018-02-27T21:16:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How is a woman wearing a typical blouse, skirt and pumps going to conceal a gun? Are armed teachers going to have to wear coats and cowboy boots to have requisite hiding places? I’m not much of a fashionista, but there are a number of concealment options available for women (I’d link to them, but they’re sometimes close enough to NSFW that I don’t think it’s a good idea). They may not meet your particular style preference, but I’d leave it up to them to figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/522 "2018-02-27T21:19:18Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > That’s still dumb, because about at least 20% of people wrongly think they are in that 5%. Do you think those two morons I attacked with their own weapons thought they would freeze when shit got real? I know for a fact they didn’t, but they were still very wrong. There are some cops in that category too. I don’t think there’s such a thing as a perfect solution with zero risks or downsides. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/523 "2018-02-27T21:20:07Z")
Sure, and then the history teacher will just pull the gun out and kill a 14 year old. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/524 "2018-02-27T21:21:08Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Sure, and then the history teacher will just pull the gun out and kill a 14 year old. Has a CCW teacher done that yet? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/525 "2018-02-27T21:22:14Z")
Is there still any substantive disagreement that this is a really not a good idea? If so, is there any remaining value in exploring the psychology of those who think it is? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/526 "2018-02-27T21:25:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is there still any substantive disagreement that this is a really not a good idea? If so, is there any remaining value in exploring the psychology of those who think it is? [44% of Americans support the idea](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/23/poll-gun-control-florida-shooting-422736). If you can spin that into there no longer being any substantive disagreement, you’d be a better spinmeister than most. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/527 "2018-02-27T21:41:55Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Clothahump, you must have missed that my classroom is the first inside the main entrance. It makes it extremely likely that would be the first stop for a shooter. The school resource officer agreed. Teachers on the second floor or across the building may have better luck, but that doesn’t help my students. I did miss that. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/528 "2018-02-27T21:42:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How is a woman wearing a typical blouse, skirt and pumps going to conceal a gun? Hey, come on, now. This is a family thread. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/529 "2018-02-27T21:45:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think there’s such a thing as a perfect solution with zero risks or downsides. Well, on that little we agree. I still don’t see how a student killed by another student with their teacher’s gun is any less dead than one killed by a student who brought their own gun. Isn’t the goal here to reduce the number of students shot? If your only goal is to protect guns over kids, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/530 "2018-02-27T21:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > …44% of Americans support the idea. If you can spin that into there no longer being any substantive disagreement, you’d be a better spinmeister than most. And that will grow, first time it works. That a teacher armed with a pistol prevails over a maniac with an automatic weapon. You think that likely? Seems from here that the madman has a clear tactical advantage. For instance, the long gun can easily take out a target at fifty yards or more. The pistol, not so much. Stealth, perhaps? What would be the plan? And if it _doesn’t_ work, as it most likely will not? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/531 "2018-02-27T21:57:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How is a woman wearing a typical blouse, skirt and pumps going to conceal a gun? Are armed teachers going to have to wear coats and cowboy boots to have requisite hiding places? This is similar to the comments made by Tom Fuentes, retired Assistant Director of the FBI, while on CNN while mansplaining carry options. Here’s the [response from A Girl and a Gun:](https://www.agirlandagun.org/cnn-analyst-women-carrying-guns-not-practical/) > [@](#): > > It is unfortunate that someone with such a public persona and lengthy career in the FBI is so ignorant about women and our ability to carry a firearm. Never before have their been more products available specifically tailored to women’s needs. There are holsters designed for all areas of a woman’s body that can be easily and safely concealed under everyday clothing. The traditional OWB holster that Mr. Fuentes references is used by some women who prefer to wear jackets or overshirts to cover the firearm, but that is only one option. There are quality holsters for inside the waistband (front, side, or back), corset/bellyband, bra mounted (both front and side), thigh and ankle holsters, boot holsters, and others. Millions of women know how to evaluate a concealed carry holster for EDC safety and functionality. Or from [Cornered Cat:](https://www.corneredcat.com/hilarious-quote-and-an-answer/) > [@](#): > > He wasn’t really asking, of course. He was just explaining that women really can’t manage the complex, manly task of carrying a gun. Based on his wide experience as being a woman who carries a gun, I guess? > > This would pretty well be the definition of ‘mansplaining’ — not a word that I’m generally a fan of, but it fits. Fuentes, who is not a woman, felt it necessary to explain on national television that women cannot discreetly carry a gun. Women can carry just fine it seems. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/532 "2018-02-27T22:08:56Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > … I still don’t see how a student killed by another student with their teacher’s gun is any less dead than one killed by a student who brought their own gun. Isn’t the goal here to reduce the number of students shot? … I don’t think “student steals teacher’s gun and shoots a bunch of people” is a significant concern, just like I’m not overly-worried about school shooters taking the school resource officer’s gun, or at least not worried enough to suggest we disarm them. As I’ve noted previously, the firearm they might procure from a CCW teacher is not generally going to be the best choice for a particularly effective school shooting, and the mechanics involved in procuring it present considerable risk to the student that tries. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/533 "2018-02-27T22:15:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And that will grow, first time it works. That a teacher armed with a pistol prevails over a maniac with an automatic weapon. You think that likely? “automatic weapon”? :dubious: I certainly think it’s possible that in a pistol vs rifle gunfight, the pistol side wins. It happens often enough out there in the wild that I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that a pistol-armed CCW teacher has a fighting chance against a rifle-armed school shooter. > [@elucidator](#): > > Seems from here that the madman has a clear tactical advantage. For instance, the long gun can easily take out a target at fifty yards or more. The pistol, not so much. Stealth, perhaps? What would be the plan? My recommendation (which no one is under any particular obligation to adhere to) would be for teachers to shelter in place with their students, and if the school shooter enters the classroom, engage him. At typical distances one might find within a classroom, a pistol is plenty-capable of disabling an attacker. > [@elucidator](#): > > And if it _doesn’t_ work, as it most likely will not? I disagree with “most likely will not”, but if it doesn’t work, we’re back to where we were before, with a bunch of people in a classroom getting shot at by a maniac. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/534 "2018-02-27T22:25:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I disagree with “most likely will not”, but if it doesn’t work, we’re back to where we were before, with a bunch of people in a classroom getting shot at by a maniac. Which the NRA believes is a completely acceptable price for freedom. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/535 "2018-02-27T22:31:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Has a CCW teacher done that yet? No, and that’s my point. In almost every case the history teacher won’t shoot the 14-year old. Btw, the child isn’t a “shooter”, the child is a pupil the teacher will have known perhaps for years. Who they understand, and have knowledge of that child’s complicated life. In almost ever case the history teacher will try and talk the child out of the action contemplated, they will often succeed. And when they don’t they will rather die than face living with having shot a troubled 14 year old. How do I know that? Because it is the rational action of a compassionate human being. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/536 "2018-02-27T22:47:36Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, and that’s my point. In almost every case the history teacher won’t shoot the 14-year old. > > Btw, the child isn’t a “shooter”, the child is a pupil the teacher will have known perhaps for years. Who they understand, and have knowledge of that child’s complicated life. > > In almost ever case the history teacher will try and talk the child out of the action contemplated, they will often succeed. And when they don’t they will rather die than face living with having shot a troubled 14 year old. > > How do I know that? Because it is the rational action of a compassionate human being. If the action is still in the “contemplated” phase, there’s definitely a chance for caring teachers and others to intervene and prevent a tragedy. That would be the best outcome. If it’s already in the “shooting” phase, I don’t think a teacher is going to have much chance for dialog with the shooter. That’s the point at which a gun of one’s own might come in handy, not while there is still a chance to “talk the child out of the action contemplated”. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/537 "2018-02-27T22:50:46Z")
I sometimes can’t help but think some people need a little more real world in their lives. The president included. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/538 "2018-02-28T00:00:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think “student steals teacher’s gun and shoots a bunch of people” is a significant concern … Maybe you should. Per the FBI, of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to about 8 percent. Why are you assuming that teachers will manage to secure their weapons better than trained law enforcement officers? Have you ever taken a gun from someone pointing one at you? A Yes or no answer only please. You see, I **have**. I’m not arguing some crazy hypothetical, this is my real life experience disagreeing with you. And it’s not just my experience. My local RCMP attachment has a standing order that officers do not bring weapons into interrogation rooms or holding areas due to the risk that it involves. Prisons use the same rules. Why do you think this is? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/539 "2018-02-28T00:03:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “automatic weapon”? :dubious:… What this, an invitation to dance the semantic dance? Carrying the charming presumption that if your ballistic vocabulary is better, then your argument must be better as well? Call it “Fred” if you like. The pertinent question is whether or not the injuries caused by Fred are more likely lethal than by Glocky. A pistol shot pokes a hole in flesh, a high-velocity round, hamburger jello. As befits a military designed weapon, where the target is not Bambi’s Mom, but an armed enemy combatant. > [@](#): > > …I certainly think it’s possible that in a pistol vs rifle gunfight, the pistol side wins. It happens often enough out there in the wild that I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that a pistol-armed CCW teacher has a fighting chance against a rifle-armed school shooter… Didn’t ask “possible”, asked “likely”. You dodged. It is entirely “possible” that betting all your money that you can draw one card to an inside straight flush will work out well for you. But not “likely”. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/540 "2018-02-28T00:27:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Without knowing your state and the year(s), I could only guess. Was concealed carry legal there at the time? Were permits generally available (shall-issue) back then? You can [look back a couple of pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20809725#post20809725) to some discussion on my estimate of the numbers for Utah. You’re right that there’s no precise count available (at least, as far as I’m aware). It’s worth mentioning here that Utah isn’t the only place this has been done (but I’m not aware of a state where teachers-packing is more widespread than in Utah). Aw, c’mon. I KNEW and know these people well. We worked together, socialized together, talked a lot about all sorts of issues. They were not packing. Furthermore, had any of them been packing and the admin found out, they would have had a very unpleasant meeting with the administration because–and I know this is hard to believe–the thinking even before gun-free schools was that CCW permits notwithstanding, GUNS DON’T BELONG IN SCHOOLS. And who was thinking that? Administrators who hunted and enjoyed a Saturday afternoon at the shooting range. Teachers who brought in photos of the 5-point they bagged over the weekend. Staff who proposed with utmost sincerity that the opening day of hunting season should be a school holiday. Would someone with a CCW permit who was found carrying at school been fired? Maybe not initially, but believe me, his judgment would have been called into question, and I doubt they’d have wanted him around. Very thin ice, indeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=28)