# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/561 "2018-02-28T16:57:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not. I’m assuming that the average teacher’s schoolday involves interactions with fewer hardened criminals intent on seizing a weapon than the average patrolman’s shift. Please let me correct that faulty assumption. Grabbing a gun does not require the skills of a hardened criminal. It is well within the abilities of an emotionally distraught teenager. Given that I have personal experience with this matter and you do not, will you accept that? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Because they’re reasonably confident they won’t be facing any opponents with a firearm in those settings. If that was true, why wouldn’t they be required to disarm themselves in other settings where they could be even more confident that they won’t be facing armed opponents? They are not required to disarm in a morgue, which only has doctors and dead people, both of whom are very unlikely to be armed. They are not required to disarm while using the bathroom in the middle of the police station. The only places in the police station they are required to disarm is the interrogation rooms and holding areas. Want to guess why again? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If the risk were so great to law enforcement that they outweighed the benefits of being armed out there in the wider world, they’d patrol without weapons, wouldn’t they? You do know that British cops do that, right? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/562 "2018-02-28T17:02:12Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > It is well within the abilities of an emotionally distraught teenager. There aren’t many other kinds. > [@](#): > > The only places in the police station they are required to disarm is the interrogation rooms and holding areas. Want to guess why again? > … > You do know that British cops do that, right? For the same reason that corrections officers in US prisons don’t carry weapons in the cell blocks, either. How is it that they aren’t safer with some means of self-defense they’re trained to use? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/563 "2018-02-28T17:26:28Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Please let me correct that faulty assumption. Grabbing a gun does not require the skills of a hardened criminal. It is well within the abilities of an emotionally distraught teenager. Given that I have personal experience with this matter and you do not, will you accept that? I think you’ve misunderstood my claim. I’m not suggesting that it’s entirely impossible for an emotional distraught teenager to successfully seize a gun, I’m suggesting that fewer emotionally distraught teenagers attempt this than hardened criminals, and hence it’s less of a concern for a teacher than a cop. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/564 "2018-02-28T17:43:26Z")
but so what? Where does that take us? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/565 "2018-02-28T18:04:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, it’s a crying shame that Joel Myrick wasn’t allowed to carry on campus. He had to run to his truck to retrieve his pistol, which delayed him from stopping the massacre sooner. Or risk shooting the wrong person. Instead, he had the advantage of having the shooter away from the middle of panicked adults and children. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/566 "2018-02-28T18:32:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are hundreds of thousands or millions of defensive gun uses every year. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/567 "2018-02-28T18:33:14Z")
Oh, neat. [http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/](http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/568 "2018-02-28T18:34:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or risk shooting the wrong person. Instead, he had the advantage of having the shooter away from the middle of panicked adults and children. Yes. It’s impossible to disprove the possibility that in that hypothetical some bystander may have been shot. FWIW, it seems that the vast majority of CCW holders behave responsibly and the vast majority of their defensive gun uses do NOT end with an injured or killed bystander. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/569 "2018-02-28T18:37:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite? [https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent](https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent) > [@](#): > > The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with **estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year**.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/570 "2018-02-28T18:50:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. It’s impossible to disprove the possibility that in that hypothetical some bystander may have been shot. FWIW, it seems that the vast majority of CCW holders behave responsibly and the vast majority of their defensive gun uses do NOT end with an injured or killed bystander. The vast majority iof CCW holders did not acquire their weapons of choice for the purpose of defending panicking school children in a packed school during a crisis situation. If Trump gets his wish and 20% of teachers become CCW holders then between 350,000 to 700,000 teachers(depending on on whether you include private schools) will be acquiring their CCWs for just that reason. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/571 "2018-02-28T19:09:18Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Oh, neat. > > [http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/](http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/) Time to arm the lunch ladies to stop the teachers…:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/572 "2018-02-28T19:10:52Z")
Or arm the students. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/573 "2018-02-28T19:20:23Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Oh, neat. > > [http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/](http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/) Sounds like we need to give more teachers guns to prevent this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/574 "2018-02-28T19:36:33Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > The solution came to me this morning. More guns in school is not the deterrent/solution we are looking for. But now I know what is! > > Trained attack dogs in every classroom. > > The vast, vast majority of the time, they’ll just be the class pet, a therapy dog, good for morale. But if there’s an active shooter, just before the rooms go on lockdown, the teachers can release their dogs into the hallway with the command, “Hunt!” Even spree killers, intent on murdering humans, are often reluctant to harm an animal. Dogs trained to attack have no fear and will not hide from a shooter. Even if they do shoot at the dog, a dog is a low-profile, difficult target. And the presence of dogs will have a strong deterrent effect, as it does on burglars. > > Whadaya think? I have an allergy to dog and cat dander. So, I might accept your idea if the dogs in question did not come into the school buildings until there is a serious emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/575 "2018-02-28T19:38:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not suggesting that it’s entirely impossible for an emotional distraught teenager to successfully seize a gun, I’m suggesting that fewer emotionally distraught teenagers attempt this than hardened criminals, and hence it’s less of a concern for a teacher than a cop. This is a “duh” claim, because currently very few emotionally distraught teenagers have teachers carrying weapons, so naturally fewer teenagers have attempted it. I am also disappointed that you ignored my point that even trained police officers disarm themselves in certain situations to increase safety to all parties, themselves included. I know it contradicts your beliefs that more guns make people safer and thus I’m not surprised, but I’m still disappointed. One last point you keep making that I want to rebut. You keep going on about how a small pistol is less suited towards a mass shooting than a rifle, which is technically true. Your hardcore sociopath will probably be unimpressed and bring his own gun from home, and yes, a pistol isn’t that great at killing lots of people. But what happens when you get a disturbed student who just wants to kill one? I’ve known bullied children who absolutely had no desire to shoot up the entire school, just their bully. I’ve known children who were no threat to anyone other than themselves due to severe depression. By arming teachers and thus allowing more access to guns, you are directly increasing the chances that these types of students will get their hands on guns. These won’t be big planned out massacres planned in advance by sociopaths, these will be little shootings done by normal kids who just had the worst day of their life and lashed out without thinking. That doesn’t make their victims any less dead. On a purely emotional level, the worst fate I could imagine inflicting on a teacher is forcing them to make the choice between use lethal force to protect their firearm from falling into the hands of a suicidal student, or watching a student kill themselves or another student with their gun. That shit destroys people in a way they never really recover from. Even on my worse “I hate everyone” days, I couldn’t wish that on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/576 "2018-02-28T19:44:36Z")
[Look! An armed teacher in a school room!](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-georgia-respond-shots-fired-high-school-53417347) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/577 "2018-02-28T20:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.” Well, now, isn’t this an interesting tidbit? But its a preliminary investigation, yes? Not meant for any definitive purpose but, as it says…“…Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research…”. So, this wasn’t actually a study, but a compilation of previous studies, as a means to promote and guide the _real_ study, the one that should come next. But never did. The CDC did _not_ proceed with that research. Bet you already know why. And this nugget! “…almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals…” _Almost_ all? Numbers is numbers, if they legit got the numbers, then the numbers match. Or they don’t. And what perzackly is meant by “almost”? And “…defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals…” So, then, defensive uses were, numerically, _more_ than offensive uses. What? People defended themselves against armed assault more frequently than armed assaults took place? Perhaps the Zimmerman Factor, whether or not to define a bottle of Snapple as a weapon of personal destruction. And last but least.“…estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…” That’s a _big_ ol’ chunk of estimatin’, don’t you think? Or don’t you? And your CNS News? Media Research Center. “…MRC’s sole mission is to expose and neutralize the propaganda arm of the Left: the national news media…” > **[About](https://www.mrc.org/about)** > > MRC has played a crucial role in countering left-wing bias in news media and popular culture, revealing the left’s agenda to undermine traditional values, restrict individual liberty, and stifle private enterprise. Alongside this effort, MRC... So, hey, way to go with the trustworthy, non-partisan citation stuff, big guy! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/578 "2018-02-28T20:59:27Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > … I am also disappointed that you ignored my point that even trained police officers disarm themselves in certain situations to increase safety to all parties, themselves included. … I didn’t ignore it. I responded to it. Those places are generally secure and controlled environments where they’re confident _no one_ will have a firearm. Out in the rough-and-tumble world, where they think there’s more of a chance they might run into an armed assailant, they generally carry guns to protect themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/579 "2018-02-28T21:27:07Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Oh, neat. > > [http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/](http://wgno.com/2018/02/28/armed-teacher-arrested-after-shooting-at-georgia-high-school/) Quick! Arm the students! Arm the bus drivers! Arm the custodians! We will NEVER be safe until each and every person in the nation is armed to the teeth at all times! Every gun is sacred, every gun is great. When a gun is wasted, God gets quite irate. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/580 "2018-02-28T21:34:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, here are a few examples: > > Joel Myrick used a pistol to detain Luke Woodham after he shot several people at his high school in Pearl, MS. [1997 Pearl High School shooting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting#Details) > > Jeanne Assam used her pistol to shoot an active shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO. [2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings#New_Life_Church_shooting) > > In April 2015 an Uber driver armed with a handgun shot and wounded a gunman in Chicago’s Logan Square. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html) It might happen that an armed citizen stops an active shooter before rampage ends, but is it often enough to outweigh the obvious threat posed by having a society that is armed to the teeth? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=30)