# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/641 "2018-03-03T18:54:45Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I have read every post in this thread. What jumps out at me is this question is treated in a similar way to other issues that get defined as having clear “left” and “right” positions. > > Global warming? What do people with PhDs in atmospheric science who spend their days analyzing climate data for NOAA know about the subject? Guys who own coal mines and have connection to Fox News say it is a hoax, and the suckers will believe that and believe the whole thing is a giant statist, leftist conspiracy to deprive us all of liberty. > > Tax cuts for the wealthy? What to professional economists with an encyclopedic knowledge of economic history know about the predictable effects of that? Billionaires who stand to make millions and who have connections to Fox News say it will _increase_ revenue, so the chumps will believe that, and anyone who suggests otherwise is another infuriating leftists hive-minder hell-bent on depriving Real Americans of their liberty for their own sinister reasons. > > Guns in schools? Guys who make millions selling guns and who have connections to Fox News say that moar guns is the answer, and the marks will believe that. Every statistic and foreign example indicates that moar guns will mean more deaths and mayhem than the status quo, but the pro gun guys are so sure of their position that we have the Dickey Amendment to ensure that _the question is not even studied_. By the power of Ipse Dixit, moar guns is the answer!! > I propose treating guns like cars- require a license and registration to own them. Yes, this means a gun registry, but the intent there is not to take everyone’s guns away at a later date, this proposal is chosen precisely as a solution that does _not_ require taking or banning any guns. People who should not have guns can be denied a license, and people who do violent or crazy things can have their guns repossessed, but otherwise lawful citizens are not affected in a meaningful way. The suckers, chumps and marks can scream about the Naziesque intrusion of state power into their lives with the registry which is the foot in the door for leftist totalitarianism, but they never know what they are talking about anyway, motivated as they usually are by the most absurd and disinformed lies. And the Oscar for inserting “Fox News”, “Global Warming” and “Tax Cuts for the Wealthy” into a rant about guns goes to … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/642 "2018-03-03T18:57:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well I’m sorry HD, but if you have another explanation for the chronic misinformation baked into GOP policies and support for them, I’d like to hear it. It isn’t that I am criticizing my “opponents” as I don’t identify with either tribe. I am a One Nation guy who wants worthwhile solutions to problems. Dividing the populace with misinformation to benefit the elites is not a new thing- it goes back to Colonial times and sure looks alive and well today. QFT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/643 "2018-03-03T19:05:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It probably is. Strange he didn’t defend his people but instead attacked the criticism leveled at them. I’m reminded of how his people responded to leaks concerning Trump’s dysfunctional administration by complaining about the leaks. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/644 "2018-03-03T19:12:55Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > … I don’t identify with either tribe. … You certainly don’t come across as non-partisan in your posting here. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/645 "2018-03-03T19:14:43Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Strange he didn’t defend his people but instead attacked the criticism leveled at them. I’m reminded of how his people responded to leaks concerning Trump’s dysfunctional administration by complaining about the leaks. Not so strange. By attacking criticism, rather than defending the people criticised, it allows one to comfort themself by telling themselves all their opponents are either ignorant suckers and chumps or mustache-twirling evil masterminds. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/646 "2018-03-03T19:20:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not so strange. By attacking criticism, rather than defending the people criticised, it allows one to comfort themself by telling themselves all their opponents are either ignorant suckers and chumps or mustache-twirling evil masterminds. Are you trying to ascribe **Try2B Comprehensive** ’s attitude to me? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/647 "2018-03-03T19:23:53Z")
I can see this drying up the supply of new teachers: if you want to teach history to kids, first you have to learn how to kill them, then you have to carry a gun. Not even going to take the chance. Next profession \>\> ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/648 "2018-03-03T19:26:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > … you have to carry a gun. … I’m pretty sure the proposal is not that they “have to”. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/649 "2018-03-03T19:32:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It probably is. No, the Actual pattern I described is distressing. The mischaracterization of what I said? Dunno what to say. Now, is it comforting to believe that every climate scientist world wide is a twirly mustachioed villain in a grand hoax conspiracy to promote the American left? Apparently comforting enough to sucker people into believing it to the point that it drives policy. Is it comforting to believe that trillion dollars tax cuts actually help the deficit? Righties today seem susceptible enough to the subject being changed from the basic math to partisanship that it drives policy. With school shootings, is it comforting to believe that the simple minded solution of arming teachers will solve the complex problem without creating bigger problems? I hope not- I would really like to see less shooting victims, not more. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/650 "2018-03-03T19:39:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You certainly don’t come across as non-partisan in your posting here. That can sometimes happen in the battle of sense vs. nonsense. But take a big enough context and you will see that I am happy to criticize “the left” when they propose dumb ideas. But making things about left v right, or about distaste for Pelosi or Hillary or Trump personally instead of the issues proposed is itself a chronic problem today IMHO. Trump proposed something stupid. Criticizing it doesn’t make me a partisan. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/651 "2018-03-03T19:41:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you trying to ascribe **Try2B Comprehensive** ’s attitude to me? Nope, he didn’t accuse anyone of comforting themselves by telling themselves that their opponents are “either ignorant suckers and chumps or mustache-twirling evil masterminds.” > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m pretty sure the proposal is not that they “have to”. They have to if they want to defend themselves from all the other teachers that are packing. 🙂 But, seriously, if this is something that is taken seriously at any level, then carrying a gun will become at least a consideration for the job, if not a deal breaker. People will take the classes and say that they are willing to carry a gun in school if that is what makes their resume look better. Having a teacher take a special class for dealing with autistic children looks good on a resume, and can either beat out a teacher that doesn’t have that class, or at least get a better wage for doing so, but doesn’t mean the teacher actually cares about kids with disabilities. Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money, rather than because they actually think it is something that will protect themselves or their students. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/652 "2018-03-03T19:50:40Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > No, the Actual pattern I described is distressing. The mischaracterization of what I said? Dunno what to say. I’m not disagreeing with you here. I was just pointing out that if you listen to fox news or the right wing media, HD’s accusation of your well laid out reasoning was fairly similar to accusations thrown at the minorities and “liberal elitists” who support the democratic party. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/653 "2018-03-03T19:52:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And the Oscar for inserting “Fox News”, “Global Warming” and “Tax Cuts for the Wealthy” into a rant about guns goes to … You like me! You Really like me! No, wait… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/654 "2018-03-03T19:56:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … But, seriously, if this is something that is taken seriously at any level, then carrying a gun will become at least a consideration for the job, if not a deal breaker. People will take the classes and say that they are willing to carry a gun in school if that is what makes their resume look better. Having a teacher take a special class for dealing with autistic children looks good on a resume, and can either beat out a teacher that doesn’t have that class, or at least get a better wage for doing so, but doesn’t mean the teacher actually cares about kids with disabilities. Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money, rather than because they actually think it is something that will protect themselves or their students. That hasn’t been the case in Utah. There’s no additional money being offered for CCW, and the schools generally aren’t even aware of it, so it’s not a factor in hiring either. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/655 "2018-03-03T20:01:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you not think we’ve already adequately tried that approach? I really don’t see much of anything at all that we’ve done to keep guns or active shooters out of schools. The primary reaction to these events has been to say it’s “too soon” to even discuss it. That’s exactly what Speaker Ryan said after the FL shooting - probably no more than a reflex. This event has gotten slightly more focus for one reason alone - the kids at the school have been politically active in their own defense. And, politicians are spouting personal beliefs backed by nothing - ensuring they lead to nothing. Political response has been epitomized by Trump’s statement: Let’s confiscate guns immediately and work out due process later! How much thought went into THAT? What studies and whose advice is he relying on? We’re not just doing nothing - we’re actively working to be SURE we do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/656 "2018-03-03T20:07:43Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > I really don’t see much of anything at all that we’ve done to keep guns or active shooters out of schools. … Many jurisdictions have passed laws to make it illegal to possess a firearm on or near school grounds, some schools have installed metal detectors, many have assigned “school resource officers” and instituted “lockdown” procedures. I think you haven’t been paying attention if you “really don’t see much of anything at all that we’ve done”. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/657 "2018-03-03T20:12:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nope, he didn’t accuse anyone of comforting themselves by telling themselves that their opponents are “either ignorant suckers and chumps or mustache-twirling evil masterminds.” > > They have to if they want to defend themselves from all the other teachers that are packing. 🙂 > > But, seriously, if this is something that is taken seriously at any level, then carrying a gun will become at least a consideration for the job, if not a deal breaker. People will take the classes and say that they are willing to carry a gun in school if that is what makes their resume look better. Having a teacher take a special class for dealing with autistic children looks good on a resume, and can either beat out a teacher that doesn’t have that class, or at least get a better wage for doing so, but doesn’t mean the teacher actually cares about kids with disabilities. Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money, rather than because they actually think it is something that will protect themselves or their students. The very idea of encouraging teachers to “take a class” and then pack a gun to a building full of kids hits me as unbelievably insulting to the entire protection profession. Do they think police officers walked in from nowhere and were provided “a class”? Do they think police officers completed that “class” and were then given a patrol car and told to go for it? People must think policemen are incompetent idiots. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/658 "2018-03-03T20:13:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That hasn’t been the case in Utah. There’s no additional money being offered for CCW, and the schools generally aren’t even aware of it, so it’s not a factor in hiring either. Right, and you are talking about one of our nations less populous states, and a state that has never had a school shooting, so using utah as an example for anything is not all that useful. There has been talk about giving bonuses to teacher that carry. Not only that, but as I said, if this starts getting taken seriously, then carrying will start to become a positive on your resume. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Many jurisdictions have passed laws to make it illegal to possess a firearm on or near school grounds, some schools have installed metal detectors, many have assigned “school resource officers” and instituted “lockdown” procedures. I think you haven’t been paying attention if you “really don’t see much of anything at all that we’ve done”. Have we done anything to prevent shooters from getting the guns with which to shoot up the school in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/659 "2018-03-03T20:26:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Many jurisdictions have passed laws to make it illegal to possess a firearm on or near school grounds, some schools have installed metal detectors, many have assigned “school resource officers” and instituted “lockdown” procedures. I think you haven’t been paying attention if you “really don’t see much of anything at all that we’ve done”. Those do not all support the contention made in the post to which I responded. In fact, there are people working on ADDING guns to schools. That’s why I chose to respond. Beyond that, none of these ideas in your list has been studied enough to provide a clue whether they mean anything. Very few medal detectors are being used, because in pretty much all instances schools have way too many ways into the building or buildings to keep covered at all times and/or have too many students to process in a time efficient manner. Also, schools often see this kind of active intervention by law enforcement as moving the school toward resembling a jail - which is already an issue that is detrimental to education. Active shooter drills are becoming more common, but that is not what you posted about - you were suggesting something about reducing the number of guns. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/660 "2018-03-03T20:27:33Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > The very idea of encouraging teachers to “take a class” and then pack a gun to a building full of kids hits me as unbelievably insulting to the entire protection profession. > > Do they think police officers walked in from nowhere and were provided “a class”? Do they think police officers completed that “class” and were then given a patrol car and told to go for it? > > People must think policemen are incompetent idiots. I almost have to agree with that last statement, as it is the police around here that is [encouraging the teachers to take a class and then take their gun to school](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/butlercounty/2018/02/18/butler-county-sheriff-richard-jones-offer-concealed-carry-class-teachers/349561002/). That said, I also know a number of cops who are not that way. It is interesting, the chief of police of the township is crazy dead set against the idea of guns in schools(no cite, as it was a personal conversation, [but I did find this interesting, “We consider every time a shot is fired, that’s a life that can be lost so it doesn’t matter if you’re the first officer on the scene, if you’re the only officer on the scene, you go towards the gun fire,”)](http://www.wlwt.com/article/west-chester-fd-running-tries-new-rescue-concept-during-school-shooter-drill/3565896), but the sheriff of the county is encouraging it. Be interesting to see how the school board meeting goes next week. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=34)