# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/661 "2018-03-03T20:44:09Z")
Keep in mind, advance warning. With metal detectors, if a madman with a semi-sorta-kinda automatic weapon is determined to burst into a school and commit mayhem, the metal detector will alert us several seconds before he gets through the door. The local police may well be informed before the first body hits the floor! ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/662 "2018-03-03T20:50:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I almost have to agree with that last statement, as it is the police around here that is [encouraging the teachers to take a class and then take their gun to school](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/butlercounty/2018/02/18/butler-county-sheriff-richard-jones-offer-concealed-carry-class-teachers/349561002/). > > That said, I also know a number of cops who are not that way. It is interesting, the chief of police of the township is crazy dead set against the idea of guns in schools(no cite, as it was a personal conversation, [but I did find this interesting, “We consider every time a shot is fired, that’s a life that can be lost so it doesn’t matter if you’re the first officer on the scene, if you’re the only officer on the scene, you go towards the gun fire,”)](http://www.wlwt.com/article/west-chester-fd-running-tries-new-rescue-concept-during-school-shooter-drill/3565896), but the sheriff of the county is encouraging it. Be interesting to see how the school board meeting goes next week. Did those officers see their training as crap? Are they ready to hand in the rest of their tools - their radios, their partners, their procedures, their tasers, their vests, and the rest? I’m sure you can find a sheriff or whatever who is willing to go into the training biz. But, my point here is that we would NEVER see such a class as being adequate for an officer who was going to be working with adults in public. Yet, the proposal is to have someone with so little training working with kids. That does not hit me as even slightly logical. Having active shooter drills for first responders is good, obviously. BUT, I was thinking you meant the drills schools are putting in place to ensure kids and teaches have an action plan for their specific circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/663 "2018-03-03T20:55:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Keep in mind, advance warning. With metal detectors, if a madman with a semi-sorta-kinda automatic weapon is determined to burst into a school and commit mayhem, the metal detector will alert us several seconds before he gets through the door. The local police may well be informed before the first body hits the floor! Keep in mind that those who have shot up schools are well known to have researched their targets. They know how to get into the building. Typically speaking, there are many entrances. Plus, operational requirements tend to leave ways of going around the detector and have capacity constraints. I’m not necessarily opposed to metal detectors, but there are practical issues that make such direction problematic and/or significantly less effective than might be thought. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/664 "2018-03-03T21:25:02Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > Did those officers see their training as crap? Are they ready to hand in the rest of their tools - their radios, their partners, their procedures, their tasers, their vests, and the rest? > > I’m sure you can find a sheriff or whatever who is willing to go into the training biz. But, my point here is that we would NEVER see such a class as being adequate for an officer who was going to be working with adults in public. Yet, the proposal is to have someone with so little training working with kids. That does not hit me as even slightly logical. > > Having active shooter drills for first responders is good, obviously. BUT, I was thinking you meant the drills schools are putting in place to ensure kids and teaches have an action plan for their specific circumstances. My point was to show off the difference between heads of different departments that have a bit of overlap. The county sheriff wants to have teachers with guns in schools, the township chief of police not only is against that, but also says things like, “if you’re the only officer on the scene, you go towards the gun fire,”. I may be biased, as I like the police chief better personally, but I also tended to agree with his perspective before he voiced it. (I was a little unsure of what direction he was going to go when he broached it, and I was worried that I was going to have a personal disagreement with a long time acquaintance and someone with a slight amount of power over me.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/665 "2018-03-03T22:29:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, and you are talking about one of our nations less populous states, and a state that has never had a school shooting, so using utah as an example for anything is not all that useful. It’s perfectly useful as an example where your _particular_ theoretical concerns (“Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money”) have not been borne out by reality. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There has been talk about giving bonuses to teacher that carry. Not only that, but as I said, if this starts getting taken seriously, then carrying will start to become a positive on your resume. So don’t give bonuses. I think it’s a bad idea, and Utah doesn’t do it. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Have we done anything to prevent shooters from getting the guns with which to shoot up the school in the first place? Sure. NICS, NICS Improvement Act, age (and other) restrictions for purchasing firearms, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/666 "2018-03-03T22:33:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … semi-sorta-kinda automatic weapon… > [@elucidator](#): > > … semi-sorta-kinda automatic weapon … Do you call them this because you’re ignorant or for some other reason? The correct term is “semi-automatic”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/667 "2018-03-03T23:00:54Z")
Do you \*really \*think he doesn’t know? He’s poking fun at you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/668 "2018-03-03T23:02:21Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Trump proposed something stupid. Criticizing it doesn’t make me a partisan. Automatically \*supporting \*it just because you share a party _would_, however. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/669 "2018-03-03T23:38:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do you \*really \*think he doesn’t know? He’s poking fun at you. I don’t know. He’s not exactly knowledgeable about firearms. Maybe he really just doesn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/670 "2018-03-04T01:32:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That hasn’t been the case in Utah. There’s no additional money being offered for CCW, and the schools generally aren’t even aware of it, so it’s not a factor in hiring either. How did the insurance companies in Utah react to arming teachers? Because when Kansas tried to do it, the insurer that covered 85% of their school districts [threatened to drop their policies.](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-arming-teachers-20180226-story.html) > [@](#): > > “Concealed handguns on school premises pose a heightened liability risk,” the insurer informed districts via its agent network. “We have chosen not to insure schools that allow employees to carry concealed handguns. Schools permitting concealed handguns will be declined, as new business. Existing schools permitting concealed handguns will not be renewed.” ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/671 "2018-03-04T02:27:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s perfectly useful as an example where your _particular_ theoretical concerns (“Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money”) have not been borne out by reality. > So don’t give bonuses. I think it’s a bad idea, and Utah doesn’t do it. > Sure. NICS, NICS Improvement Act, age (and other) restrictions for purchasing firearms, etc. Utah doesn’t work as an example. There’s no way of knowing or even estimating how many teachers pack, and guesses are useless. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/672 "2018-03-04T05:34:36Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Utah doesn’t work as an example. There’s no way of knowing or even estimating how many teachers pack, and guesses are useless. If your criteria is that we have to know the precise number, we wouldn’t get much done. We make all sorts of decisions all the time based on estimates. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/673 "2018-03-04T05:36:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How did the insurance companies in Utah react to arming teachers? Because when Kansas tried to do it, the insurer that covered 85% of their school districts [threatened to drop their policies.](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-arming-teachers-20180226-story.html) I’m unaware of any insurance companies giving any Utah schools any issues over it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/674 "2018-03-04T06:50:03Z")
Brilliant! Back when this kind of thing was still satire: [Brass Eye - Priests with guns - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAQy8v0d_qo) ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/675 "2018-03-04T06:58:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If your criteria is that we have to know the precise number, we wouldn’t get much done. We make all sorts of decisions all the time based on estimates. My criteria isn’t that we have to have a precise number. My criteria is that we have to have something other than a guess, which is what you made. Utah schools have no idea how many teachers are carrying. You have no idea how many teachers are carrying. An assumption is not an estimate. Here’s an example. Suppose I claimed no teachers in Hawaii conceal carry to school. In this case, I might be right because Hawaii not only has one of the lowest guns-per-capita rates but almost never issues CCW permits. _That’s_ an estimate based on data, but it still wouldn’t hold up because for all I know, most gun owners in Hawaii are teachers, and they’re all illegally carrying concealed weapons to school to school. That’s true even if I really, _really_ want to be right about my “estimate.” And when someone on here makes an estimate that’s not extrapolated from verifiable data, he or she is usually called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/676 "2018-03-04T11:28:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m unaware of any insurance companies giving any Utah schools any issues over it. Is this because you did research into it and found no problems, or is it because you haven’t you haven’t looked into it at all and are assuming that there is no problem out of ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/677 "2018-03-04T14:01:21Z")
[Gun in Central Michigan University shooting belonged to suspect’s police officer father](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-central-michigan-university-shooting-20180303-story.html) Legal gun, law abiding citizen, two dead. Sometimes they fall into the wrong hands. More guns = more death. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/678 "2018-03-04T14:53:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this because you did research into it and found no problems, or is it because you haven’t you haven’t looked into it at all and are assuming that there is no problem out of ignorance? I haven’t looked into that particular topic, but I’m quite well versed in Utah’s RKBA issues. I’ve had face-to-face sit-down meetings with the U of U President, with the Governor of Utah, with a couple of school board members, and testified in legislative committee hearings about the issues surrounding guns in schools, and none of the people opposed to the idea have ever raised that concern that I’m aware of. If it’s a problem, they’re either unaware of it too or keeping it a secret at times when it would have helped them argue against the idea. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/679 "2018-03-04T15:18:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s perfectly useful as an example where your _particular_ theoretical concerns (“Teachers will be arming themselves in order to get hired or more money”) have not been borne out by reality. > So don’t give bonuses. I think it’s a bad idea, and Utah doesn’t do it. I agree it is a bad idea, but it is an idea that is being floated and considered in serious circles. You have no idea how many teachers are carrying. If actual research is done, and it is found that only a tiny fraction of the teachers are carrying, then something will need to be done to incentivize them. > [@](#): > > Sure. NICS, NICS Improvement Act, age (and other) restrictions for purchasing firearms, etc. That didn’t stop the last shooting, or the one before that. There were steps that could have been taken, he was known to law enforcement, but they had no tools to remove the guns from his possession without charging him with a felony. The current system means that either there is nothing that can be done, or that they need to be overcharged in order to reduce their threat to society. “Take their guns, then due process” is not a good idea, not at all. But coming up with ways to expedite the due process to stay fair and respectful of rights, while still allowing guns to be take from people that are posing a serious threat is something that we should be doing, but are being blocked by gun rights absolutists. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If your criteria is that we have to know the precise number, we wouldn’t get much done. We make all sorts of decisions all the time based on estimates. Your estimate was somewhere between 0% and 100%. That is not the sort of estimate upon which any rational decision can be made. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/680 "2018-03-04T15:26:41Z")
In MO, the insurance company for the schools says that any teacher that wants to carry in schools [must take one specific training course from Shield Solutions](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/19/teachers-lesson-plans-guns/14244113/), and it is rather intense. There is a 40 hour training course over a five day period, followed by a 24 hours of additional training, 8 hours each in the spring, summer and fall. After training on the range, they do simulation “shoot/don’t shoot” training scenarios at an elementary school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=35)