# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/681 "2018-03-04T17:00:46Z")
The Founders gave us a bit of guidance: " insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare,…" Arming educators does not increase domestic tranquility or promote the general welfare. It may be a step toward common defense, but where do you go next: razor wire around schools; armored school buses? The solution is to remove the basic cause - the gun culture. Repealing the second amendment is a start. The rest is up to our society: Emphasize sport use of weapons Allow concealed carry only in case of demonstrated need Establish chain of responsibility for weapon ownership Remove military style weapons from civilian ownership None of this is likely to happen, so we are stuck with the problem and **it is going to get much worse**. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/682 "2018-03-04T18:40:18Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The Founders gave us a bit of guidance: > > " insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare,…" > > Arming educators does not increase domestic tranquility or promote the general welfare. It may be a step toward common defense, but where do you go next: razor wire around schools; armored school buses? > > The solution is to remove the basic cause - the gun culture. Repealing the second amendment is a start. The rest is up to our society: > > Emphasize sport use of weapons > > Allow concealed carry only in case of demonstrated need > > Establish chain of responsibility for weapon ownership > > Remove military style weapons from civilian ownership > > None of this is likely to happen, so we are stuck with the problem and **it is going to get much worse**. > > Crane I’m impressed, Crane. Most Americans that I talk to won’t consider that there might be something wrong with the second amendment because the founding fathers were INFALLIBLE. It is gratifying to see there are Americans who can actually see a major flaw in the system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/683 "2018-03-04T18:50:58Z")
If ambiguity were an art, the Second Amendment would be its Mona Lisa. Our Constitution has some pretty good things, checks and balances to prevent any one group from domination. My own theory is that this is the direct result of a governing agreement amongst men who didn’t trust each other any further than Tom Jefferson could throw “Little Jimmy” Madison. Or, about eight feet. Maybe it made sense then, but it doesn’t now. Life is change, how it differs from the rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/684 "2018-03-04T19:13:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In MO, the insurance company for the schools says that any teacher that wants to carry in schools [must take one specific training course from Shield Solutions](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/19/teachers-lesson-plans-guns/14244113/), and it is rather intense. There is a 40 hour training course over a five day period, followed by a 24 hours of additional training, 8 hours each in thewspring, summer and fall. After training on the range, they do simulation “shoot/don’t shoot” training scenarios at an elementary school. Sounds like a good program. In the meantime What’s the training course for children under attack? The whole idea of CCW is to deal with the time gap between a threat and law enforcement. The threat can be a gun, a vehicle, or a knife. People who want to kill your friends and family aren’t heavily invested in discussions on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/685 "2018-03-04T19:26:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know. He’s not exactly knowledgeable about firearms. Maybe he really just doesn’t know. Poking fun at an “argument” which has kept surfacing in these discussions we have held for, loathe, these many years. “You called it an ‘assault rifle’, but it clearly does not have the M-291(a) bayonet flange which all _real_ assault rifles have. Therefore, since you are ignorant of firearms, your argument can be dismissed as unfounded.” Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! I am not an oncologist, but am firmly opposed to cancer. As it happens, I have read quite a bit about the history and evolution of firearms. Once can trace a lot of human history in science, metallurgy, chemistry…the big technological advances we created from our fervent desire to poke holes in each other. And so it goes. I know more about weaponry that the average Amish farmer, and I’ll cheerfully grant that I know less than you. I know more about the effect of military-designed weapons on innocent flesh that I ever wanted to. I’d prefer that my grandchildren know even less. And theirs, less still. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/686 "2018-03-04T19:38:54Z")
A bayonet mount on an assault weapon is anachronistic. Crane ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/687 "2018-03-04T19:54:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … There were steps that could have been taken, he was known to law enforcement, but they had no tools to remove the guns from his possession without charging him with a felony. The current system means that either there is nothing that can be done, or that they need to be overcharged in order to reduce their threat to society. … Huh? Felon is not the only category for prohibited person. If the authorities had had Cruz involuntarily committed, he would have been prohibited from purchasing a firearm, but [they chose not to](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html): > [@](#): > > The report noted that a mental health center had been contacted in the past to detain Mr. Cruz under Florida’s Baker Act, which allows the state to hospitalize people for several days if they are a threat to themselves or others. The center determined that he was not such a threat. Had Mr. Cruz been involuntarily committed, state law could have prohibited him from buying a firearm. This was not a case of “gun rights absolutists” stymieing the authorities. It’s a case of the authorities not utilizing the tools available to them. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Your estimate was somewhere between 0% and 100%. My estimate was that about 10% probably have CCW permits. I don’t know how many of those carry every day. [About 1,000 more took the class yesterday](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/03/hundreds-of-utah-teachers-and-students-attend-a-saturday-concealed-carry-gun-class-organized-after-floridas-high-school-massacre/). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/688 "2018-03-04T19:59:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Huh? Felon is not the only category for prohibited person. If the authorities had had Cruz involuntarily committed, he would have been prohibited from purchasing a firearm, but [they chose not to](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html): Getting someone committed is harder than getting them convicted of a felony. You can prove that they did something illegal, proving that they may be a danger to themselves or other, especially when they have enough presence of mind to play along with those evaluating them, is much harder. > [@](#): > > This was not a case of “gun rights absolutists” stymieing the authorities. It’s a case of the authorities not utilizing the tools available to them. What tools did the authorities not use? Are you saying that they should have overridden the doctors at the mental health center? > [@](#): > > My estimate was that about 10% probably have CCW permits. I don’t know how many of those carry every day. [About 1,000 more took the class yesterday](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/03/hundreds-of-utah-teachers-and-students-attend-a-saturday-concealed-carry-gun-class-organized-after-floridas-high-school-massacre/). You estimate was that about 10% had them. You estimated that somewhere between 0% and 100% actually carried in school, this is not an estimate upon which any rational decision can be made. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/689 "2018-03-04T20:06:01Z")
Had the police stopped Cruz on his way to the school with the weapon in his possession, what might they have accused him of? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/690 "2018-03-04T20:06:53Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The solution is to remove the basic cause - the gun culture. Repealing the second amendment is a start. The rest is up to our society: Your premise makes no sense If someone intends to harm others they will do so. taking away the ability to defend yourself does not help the situation. We have a violent cultural mindset complete with computer based training on how to kill people. Many of our children spend more time playing WOW then they spend in school. We didn’t play these games when I was young. We played sports or rode our bikes or a hundred other more sociable activities . We had a higher percentage of 2 parent families with functional parents. I didn’t personally know of any kid on hard drugs. Yes, all the negative aspects of today existed back then but in significantly smaller amounts. It was a much different environment than today. Today I know of many children involved in hard drugs. They’re either dead, in jail, or completely dysfunctional. So your premise that guns are the problem ignores the actual problem(s). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/691 "2018-03-04T20:11:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > taking away the ability to defend yourself does not help the situation. Oh please; not this bullshit again. “no gun” ≠ “no defense” ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/692 "2018-03-04T20:12:49Z")
Magiver, You make my point. The problem is the gun culture. You are correct that there are other means. I believe there are laws against getting bitten by a person with aids. Still reducing the number of guns and controlling the remainder will be the cure. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/693 "2018-03-04T20:23:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh please; not this bullshit again. “no gun” ≠ “no defense” Clearly the use of teacher’s bodies has worked so well in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/694 "2018-03-04T20:28:18Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Magiver, > > You make my point. The problem is the gun culture. > > You are correct that there are other means. > > Crane I made a foot long knife in shop class when I went to high school. I carried it around as a bookmark between classes while I was making it. There were no black helicopters swooping in to arrest me. The rural schools had gun clubs and kids shot at school. I was trained in how to use a handgun at a school. There is no way we are ending the 2nd amendment. Either we revert back to a society that respects life or we defend ourselves from a society that doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/695 "2018-03-04T20:30:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh please; not this bullshit again. “no gun” ≠ “no defense” and “no second amendment” ≠ “no guns”, it just means that we can actually develop rational gun policies. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/696 "2018-03-04T20:39:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your premise makes no sense If someone intends to harm others they will do so. taking away the ability to defend yourself does not help the situation. We have a violent cultural mindset complete with computer based training on how to kill people. Many of our children spend more time playing WOW then they spend in school. > > We didn’t play these games when I was young. We played sports or rode our bikes or a hundred other more sociable activities . We had a higher percentage of 2 parent families with functional parents. I didn’t personally know of any kid on hard drugs. > > Yes, all the negative aspects of today existed back then but in significantly smaller amounts. It was a much different environment than today. Today I know of many children involved in hard drugs. They’re either dead, in jail, or completely dysfunctional. > > So your premise that guns are the problem ignores the actual problem(s). There are very obvious reasons that guns are used in the mass murders we are seeing. Nobody can deny that guns are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/697 "2018-03-04T20:43:52Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > There are very obvious reasons that guns are used in the mass murders we are seeing. > > Nobody can deny that guns are part of the problem. The problem is the violence. Guns are inanimate objects. Take them away and something else will replace them. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/698 "2018-03-04T20:46:41Z")
Like cars and swimming pools, making it much more difficult to slaughter school kids. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/699 "2018-03-04T20:48:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The problem is the violence. Guns are inanimate objects. Take them away and something else will replace them. Yes, something with less ease of access and lethal potential. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/700 "2018-03-04T20:49:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I made a foot long knife in shop class when I went to high school. I carried it around as a bookmark between classes while I was making it. There were no black helicopters swooping in to arrest me. The rural schools had gun clubs and kids shot at school. I was trained in how to use a handgun at a school. > > There is no way we are ending the 2nd amendment. Either we revert back to a society that respects life or we defend ourselves from a society that doesn’t. That is an amazing false dichotomy. It’s true that the 2nd amendment is an obstacle to forming rational laws on guns. But, we constrain every right we have, including the 2nd. So, suggesting we have to surrender is nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=36)