# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/101 "2018-02-16T22:30:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I used to be a teacher and I can tell you that their are already some teachers quietly carrying. I take it your state allows this and the district has a policy in place? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/102 "2018-02-16T22:31:00Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > You’re right that no one is proposing arming teachers with rifles. I mentioned that because you said handguns should be thought of as a weapon of last resort. As the topic is arming teachers, I’m guessing that means with handguns. > > A teacher with a handgun against a person armed with an AR-15. > > Since a handgun (and it’s probably safe to assume not all teachers would carry a Dirty Harry .44 Magnum; some would undoubtedly carry a .22 pistol) wouldn’t do much against an assault rifle, I still fail to see why armed teachers would be a good idea. Somehow it sounds like I’ve left you with the impression that “a handgun wouldn’t do much against an assault rifle”. That’s not the case. People with rifles are subdued by people with handguns on a regular basis. It’s not an ideal situation, but then being in a school shooting is never really an ideal situation. In relatively close quarters indoors, someone with a handgun and some basic training has a decent chance of winning the gunfight. It’s also probably worth mentioning that not all school shootings feature assailants armed with “assault rifles”. The Virginia Tech shooter, to pick one high-profile example, used a couple of really mundane pistols. > [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > And unless I missed it, no one has addressed my question, or at least not sufficiently, of who would organize the teachers in a firefight and keep them from killing each other, students, or other innocent people. Public schools don’t require uniforms, so it’d be hard to tell who is “us” and who is “them” in a tense situation. It’s not going to be a pitched battle in need of field marshals to command the troops. It’s an inherently chaotic situation, and everyone will do the best they can. I imagine most teachers would shelter in place in their classroom, turn out the lights, lock the door, perhaps form a makeshift barricade with furniture, and hunker down. If the shooter comes into their classroom, they’ll do the best they can to shoot them first. There’s no way to guarantee that the teacher’s won’t accidentally shoot each other or a bystander, just like there’s no way to guarantee that the cops won’t accidentally shoot each other or a bystander, but I think you’re envisioning the teachers forming up into active-shooter response squadrons and hunting him down through the hallways of the school or something. That’s probably not what would happen in most cases. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/103 "2018-02-16T22:31:16Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > That and Switzerland is a special case. They only maintained their independence for a few centuries while being surrounded by larger, wealthier and stronger nations with ambitions; by being heavily armed. > > Israel is in a similar position, so comparisons with armed Israeli teachers is also Apples to Hand Grenades. > > Neither Canada nor Mexico is suddenly going to jump us. Comparisons of America to other countries are always inherently flawed. America isn’t Switzerland, it isn’t Israel, it isn’t Japan (that’s for goddamn sure) and it isn’t Australia. Different cultures are different. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/104 "2018-02-16T22:33:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > With the permission of the local school board, right? > [@nelliebly](#): > > I take it your state allows this and the district has a policy in place? I can’t speak for what **Urbanredneck** was referring to, but we’ve got a country hundreds of millions of people. It should surprise no one that some number are going to ignore rules that they find foolish or inconvenient. These posts smack of being “shocked—shocked—to find that gambling is going on in here!” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/105 "2018-02-16T22:34:11Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Comparisons of America to other countries are always inherently flawed. America isn’t Switzerland, it isn’t Israel, it isn’t Japan (that’s for goddamn sure) and it isn’t Australia. Different cultures are different. Right, and the day of the shooting, when I opposed arming teachers on another board, the immediate response from a pro-gunner was a meme comparing our schools to Israeli schools and saying they don’t have school shootings. A complete bullshit meme, first response. Like I said, Apples to Hand Grenades. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/106 "2018-02-16T22:40:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > As long as the board is elected, you bet their asses they’ll care what the public wants. > > Honestly, I’d expect a wave of teachers resigning in the face of this sort of thing. Believe me, there are people earnestly waiting for the next election. However, few people want to run for the school board, which is how the alt-right (and they truly are alt-right) members got on there in the first place: during the last election, there were 4 candidates for 4 seats. I don’t know if there’d be a wave of teachers resigning. Most people who teach there are tied by family and have spouses who work there. This is a very rural area, where towns are 25 miles apart. It’s not easy to get another teaching job despite the abysmal benefits and salaries that have been frozen for 10 years. I’d probably switch to an all-Kevlar wardrobe. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/107 "2018-02-16T23:02:12Z")
I have another idea. This would reduce school mass shootings to zero. What we do is, we surround the school with a chain link fence. Then another fence, with guard dogs available. And let’s put guard towers around the school. Then what we do is build a cinder block building, with really narrow windows. That’ll keep snipers from shooting those kids. Then with the kids safely inside, they’ll have to undergo a very through search in their underwear for any weapons. Maybe even a cavity check for the suspicious ones. It’ll cost a lot of money and hassle to have the kids enter and leave, so let’s keep them inside the facility for long periods at a time. Make their test scores determine when a board decides to let em out. They’ll need a place to sleep, so let’s have them sleep in bunk rooms with just a few classmates in their so no one can go on a mass knifing spree. Oh, we’ll need to conduct regular inspections of their belongings and confiscate anything sharpened into a knife. It might be easier on the staff if the students have to wear uniforms with a number on it. That way we won’t lose any kids. Oh, a kid might go around trying to mass knife people at night, so we should make the doors to their rooms of something reinforced. Like metal bars or something, something you can’t just break through. Yeah this will work great. I can forsee some kids forming up into gangs, getting tatoos, and bullying their classmates, maybe even occasionally stabbing one to death with a knife that slipped through the cracks. I think that’ll be ok, though, it won’t be nearly as frequent as deaths from mass shooters. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/108 "2018-02-16T23:07:35Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Comparisons of America to other countries are always inherently flawed. America isn’t Switzerland, it isn’t Israel, it isn’t Japan (that’s for goddamn sure) and it isn’t Australia. Different cultures are different. I daresay comparisons to Canada are as minimally flawed as possible (probably some U.S. states are more similar to some Canadian provinces than they are to some other U.S. states), but are you writing off all comparisons in general? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/109 "2018-02-16T23:21:00Z")
Because of the relationship between the federal and state governments, the division into 50 states, and the wildly varying demographic makeup - and 200-odd years of cumulative collective consciousness, as much as such a thing can be said to exist - I do believe America to be entirely unique among the nations of the world. I have spent significant time in Canada - both Anglophone and Francophone - and it is, in the main, far more like the UK or France than America. (I also find it highly preferable in many ways.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/110 "2018-02-16T23:22:07Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > Since a handgun (and it’s probably safe to assume not all teachers would carry a Dirty Harry .44 Magnum; some would undoubtedly carry a .22 pistol) wouldn’t do much against an assault rifle, I still fail to see why armed teachers would be a good idea. It wouldn’t need to do anything against an assault rifle [sic]. It just needs to do something against the person wielding it. It’s not like they’re facing off at high noon. Still, the idea of arming most of the teachers I had growing up does not appeal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/111 "2018-02-16T23:26:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I daresay comparisons to Canada are as minimally flawed as possible (probably some U.S. states are more similar to some Canadian provinces than they are to some other U.S. states), but are you writing off all comparisons in general? Not when I have a bumper sticker that says ‘Minnesota: America’s Canada’. 😉 It’s just some of the ones being used are too obviously nowhere near comparable in situation. I don’t think England, despite the origins/birth culture of our nation is comparable, because there you’re a subject of the crown, where here it’s We the People, and deliberately so. Our Republic was intended to moderate the Will of the People, hopefully via some pragmatism, intelligence and wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/112 "2018-02-16T23:27:29Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It wouldn’t need to do anything against an assault rifle [sic]. It just needs to do something against the person wielding it. It’s not like they’re facing off at high noon. The movie theater shooter had body armor. But yeah, most mass shooters can’t get it, it’s expensive and/or they are expecting none of their victims to be armed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/113 "2018-02-16T23:28:21Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Because of the relationship between the federal and state governments, the division into 50 states, and the wildly varying demographic makeup - and 200-odd years of cumulative collective consciousness, as much as such a thing can be said to exist - I do believe America to be entirely unique among the nations of the world. You can’t quite have it both ways, though, where the country has a “cumulative collective consciousness” but also wide internal divisions. I can readily grant that no one-size-fits-all solution or approach is likely to work, and there are parts of the U.S. where a teacher with a sidearm might merit barely a shrug and other parts where it would be considered downright shocking and inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/114 "2018-02-16T23:32:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Not when I have a bumper sticker that says ‘Minnesota: America’s Canada’. 😉 > > It’s just some of the ones being used are too obviously nowhere near comparable in situation. I don’t think England, despite the origins/birth culture of our nation is comparable, because there you’re a subject of the crown, where here it’s We the People, and deliberately so. Our Republic was intended to moderate the Will of the People, hopefully via some pragmatism, intelligence and wisdom. I’m not sure it’s as stark a division as you suggest - there is considerable romanticism in the U.S. about royalty and family dynasties, while no doubt there are many Britons who see the monarchy as irrelevant, obsolete or a necessary evil. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/115 "2018-02-17T00:42:53Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I take it your state allows this and the district has a policy in place? Heck no. its all under the table. Or maybe… who knows… I’m guessing some in administration know who has what. Plus guns can be pretty small and fit nicely into a purse. So that sweet little old lady that teaches english could easily be carrying and you wouldnt even know. funny thing. years ago, 70’s, kids in some areas could bring guns to school on the school bus if they permission from the principal. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/116 "2018-02-17T00:47:47Z")
This is the dumbest idea I have ever read. There are so many flaws with it to list. Teachers have enough things to deal with and the responsibility of a loaded gun does not need to be another thing for them. Keep all guns out of the schools besides those carried by police officers. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/117 "2018-02-17T00:50:14Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So that sweet little old lady that teaches english could easily be carrying and you wouldnt even know. Also, she has commando training! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/118 "2018-02-17T00:51:22Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > This is the dumbest idea I have ever read. There are so many flaws with it to list. Teachers have enough things to deal with and the responsibility of a loaded gun does not need to be another thing for them. Keep all guns out of the schools besides those carried by police officers. Did you know that one of our “school shootings” this year was a gun carried by a police officer? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/119 "2018-02-17T00:53:34Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It wouldn’t need to do anything against an assault rifle [sic]. It just needs to do something against the person wielding it. It’s not like they’re facing off at high noon. > > Still, the idea of arming most of the teachers I had growing up does not appeal to me. I’ll admit I may be going too far the other way, in the sense that teachers bearing guns would be indistinguishable from Don Knotts in the Shakiest Gun in the West, but honestly, I don’t think most people, trained for 8 hours or 32 hours or whatever, would have a lot of presence of mind when confronted with someone firing heavy rounds constantly. Teachers, as a rule, just don’t have the experience, whether or not their trained. And I repeat my assertion that most people would find it very difficult to hold a gun and deliberately shoot another human being. That said, I agree with a previous poster who said s/he would do whatever is necessary to protect the lives of the students. However, for the average teacher, I would think that would involve covering students with their (the teacher’s) own body, barricading doors, and generally hiding and trying to stay alive. All of which makes sense. I just don’t see teachers being John Wayne. Which is what I see as the argument for arming teachers, and the idea of the “good guy with a gun”. Let the good guys with guns be law enforcement, SWAT teams, and others. Not teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/120 "2018-02-17T00:55:52Z")
See, it’s all a secret plot by Betsy DeVoss to give her brother’s company Blackwater a contract for 60,000 ‘teachers’ with military experience to put discipline back into classrooms. Yes, I know Blackwater has been sold several times and no longer exists under that name. No, I don’t believe this, I’m inventing a conspiracy theory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=7)