# Army and Air Force ranks (question raised by Good Morning Vietnam) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2022, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033 "2022-06-28T12:27:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/1 "2022-06-28T12:27:14Z")
In the movie Good Morning Vietnam, Robin Williams played an airman, JT Walsh played a sergeant major, Bruno Kirby played a lieutenant, and various other people were, I guess, privates? Here’s my understanding: Airman is like a private, sergeant major is a high ranking enlisted rank (the highest?), so all the radio folks were subordinate to him. Lieutenant is an officer, so the sergeant major was subordinate to him? Is that right? Sometimes, he seemed to have a direct line to the general. So, is airman the same as private? Do all enlisted men fall below the lowest officer? Even so, do some senior enlisted ranks sort of parallel higher? Also, does any sergeant really say, “I work for a living”? It seems to be a common movie trope. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/2 "2022-06-28T12:35:52Z")
First big question is are you sure JT Walsh was Air Force? That is an Army & Marine Rank. Air Force uses Master Sergeant. Airforce: E-1 to E-4 are Airman(basic), Airman, Airman First Class & Sr. Airman. Army: Private, Private, Private 1st class, Corporal. Marines: Private, Private 1st class, Lance Corporal, Corporal * * * Kirby could be a 2nd lieutenant, they have little experience quite often and aren’t taken as a seriously as an E8 or E9. Still would be a little odd for a Sgt Major to have a strong in with the General. Now in the Navy we have a Command Master Chief, the Senior E9 on the ship. They do have a direct line to the XO or Captain. * * * * * * The “I work for a living” thing is used in real life with “Don’t Salute Me, I work for a living.” Sergeants and Chiefs do really say this. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/3 "2022-06-28T12:38:05Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, is airman the same as private? Do all enlisted men fall below the lowest officer? Even so, do some senior enlisted ranks sort of parallel higher? Yes, yes, and yes. Technically, the greenest O-1 lieutenant outranks the crustiest 24-year E-9 command sergeant major. But that CSM works directly for the commander of a battalion, brigade, or division and is a vital cog in keeping things running. So he commands an enormous amount of informal influence and respect. He could take off the lieutenant’s head without leaving a mark. Some lieutenants learn this the hard way. > [@](#): > > Also, does any sergeant really say, “I work for a living”? It seems to be a common movie trope. I’ve heard it before (in the 90’s). Some people like to throw their weight around, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/4 "2022-06-28T12:40:04Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > First big question is are you sure JT Walsh was Air Force? He was army, not air force. Anyway, thanks, both of you! That’s what I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/5 "2022-06-28T12:43:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yes, yes, and yes. Technically, the greenest O-1 lieutenant outranks the crustiest 24-year E-9 command sergeant major. But that CSM works directly for the commander of a battalion, brigade, or division and is a vital cog in keeping things running. So he commands an enormous amount of informal influence and respect. He could take off the lieutenant’s head without leaving a mark. Some lieutenants learn this the hard way. Even in less extreme cases, it’s not uncommon for a fresh new lieutenant to have a grizzled, experienced sergeant directly under him. In such a case, the lieutenant clearly and unambiguously is the one giving the orders, but he would still be prudent to listen closely to the sergeant’s advice. Also, as they say, a sergeant in motion outranks a lieutenant who doesn’t know what’s going on, and an explosives ordinance technician at a dead run outranks everyone. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/6 "2022-06-28T12:43:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > and an explosives ordinance technician at a dead run outranks everyone. Haha! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/7 "2022-06-28T12:43:45Z")
I found a pretty good table: | PAY SCALE | ARMY | AIR FORCE | MARINES | NAVY AND COAST GUARD | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | **Commissioned Officers** | | | | | | \*\* | General of the Army | General of the Air Force | | Fleet Admiral | | O-10 | Army Chief of Staff | | | | | General | Air Force Chief of Staff General | Commandant of the Marine Corps | | | | General | Chief of Naval Operations | | | | | Commandant of the Coast Guard | | | | | | Admiral | | | | | | O-9 | Lieutenant General | Lieutenant General | Lieutenant General | Vice Admiral | | O-8 | Major General | Major General | Major General | Rear Admiral (Upper Half) | | O-7 | Brigadier General | Brigadier General | Brigadier General | Rear Admiral (Commodore) | | O-6 | Colonel | Colonel | Colonel | Captain | | O-5 | Lieutenant Colonel | Lieutenant Colonel | Lieutenant Colonel | Commander | | O-4 | Major | Major | Major | Lieutenant Commander | | O-3 | Captain | Captain | Captain | Lieutenant | | O-2 | 1st Lieutenant | 1st Lieutenant | 1st Lieutenant | Lieutenant, Junior Grade | | O-1 | 2nd Lieutenant | 2nd Lieutenant | 2nd Lieutenant | Ensign | | **Warrant Officers** | | | | | | W-5 | Master Warrant Officer 5 | | Chief Warrant Officer 5 | Master Warrant Officer | | W-4 | Warrant Officer 4 | | Chief Warrant Officer 4 | Warrant Officer 4 | | W-3 | Warrant Officer 3 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Warrant Officer 3 | | W-2 | Warrant Officer 2 | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Warrant Officer 2 | | W-1 | Warrant Officer 1 | | Warrant Officer | Warrant Officer 1 | | **Non-Commissioned Officers** | | | | | | Special | Sergeant Major of the Army | Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force | Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps | Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy | | E-9 | Command Sergeant Major | | | | | Sergeant Major | First Sergeant (Chief Master Sergeant) | | | | | Chief Master Sergeant | Sergeant Major | | | | | Master Gunnery Sergeant | Master Chief Petty Officer | | | | | E-8 | First Sergeant | | | | | Master Sergeant | First Sergeant (Senior Master Sergeant) | | | | | Senior Master Sergeant | First Sergeant | | | | | Master Sergeant | Senior Chief Petty Officer | | | | | E-7 | Sergeant First Class | First Sergeant (Master Sergeant) | | | | Master Sergeant | Gunnery Sergeant | Chief Petty Officer | | | | E-6 | Staff Sergeant | Technical Sergeant | Staff Sergeant | Petty Officer First Class | | E-5 | Sergeant | Staff Sergeant | Sergeant | Petty Officer Second Class | | E-4 | Corporal | | Corporal | Petty Officer Third Class | | **Enlisted Personnel** | | | | | | E-4 | Specialist | Senior Airman | | | | E-3 | Private First Class | Airman First Class | Lance Corporal | Seaman | | E-2 | Private | Airman | Private First Class | Seaman Apprentice | | E-1 | Private (Recruit) | Airman Basic | Private | Seaman Recruit | ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/8 "2022-06-28T12:45:48Z")
I see I had the terminology wrong, which I should have known from crosswords – sergeants are non-commissioned officers, not enlisted ranks. I think I don’t know where warrant officers fit in. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/9 "2022-06-28T12:54:16Z")
**NCOs** non-commissioned officers are Enlisted. **Warrant Officers** are kind of weird. We only had a handful on a ship with 5,000 crewman. They started out as Enlisted, did not go to OCS (Officer Candidate School) to become Commissioned Officers. Instead they’re junior to O1 (2nd Lt and Ensigns) but technically senior to all Enlisted. They are to be saluted by Enlisted. The Warrant system varies by service and I just don’t know much about it at all. * * * * * * In theory in the Navy WOs should be highly skilled tech types raised from the Enlisted Ranks. But the WO we had in E-Div was a terrible Electrician so clearly the system didn’t work as intended across the board. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/10 "2022-06-28T12:56:37Z")
So, no one salutes non-coms? And W-Os are senior to all of those various sergeants? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/11 "2022-06-28T12:59:11Z")
Right, you don’t salute a non-com; though Officers are generally suppose to return the salute given. The one exception to saluting non-coms is in bootcamp. I feel like there was a period of time in bootcamp where we were saluting the CCs (company commanders). CCs were NCOs and basically the Navy version of drill sergeants. Everything in the Navy is acronyms, I’m trying to expand each one the first time I use it. * * * So on the OCS, as I recall you had to be at least an E-5 to apply. I believe you needed at least an Associates Degree. The WO program was for E-7 and above (Chiefs) and no degree required but you were in theory suppose to a be a pretty special specialist. I vaguely recall Cryptology produced more Warrants than most [rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_ratings). So probably a retention thing in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/12 "2022-06-28T13:04:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Also, does any sergeant really say, “I work for a living”? It seems to be a common movie trope. “If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.” “I’m going to rip off your head and shit down your windpipe.” “You’re as fucked up as a soup sandwich.” Theses and many other cliches are used in the US military by noncommissioned officers as if they’d made them up there on the spot and are enamored at their own cleverness. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/13 "2022-06-28T13:08:14Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > “If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.” This is the best of the three. I can’t believe they really say these things, but that’s for an IMHO thread. I want to thank everyone again for all the quick responses! My family has zero history of military service and we’re completely clueless about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/14 "2022-06-28T14:04:41Z")
In the Army, officers in leadership positions are advised and mentored by NCOs. The commander (commissioned officer) and the advisor (noncommissioned officer) make up the “command team”. A platoon leader (LT) is advised by a platoon sergeant (Sergeant First Class). A company commander (Captain) is advised by a First Sergeant. Battalion Commanders (lieutenant colonel), Brigade Commanders (Colonel) all the way up to 4-Star General are advised by Command Sergeants Major (CSM). Once an enlisted person achieves the rank of CSM, he/she continues to move up, not in rank, but in position. That position might as well be a “rank” though. A CSM working for a 4-Star General pretty much outranks a CSM working for a LTC, at least in respect and regard. A CSM will always salute a new LT (out of respect for the military service, standards and discipline). However, that LT had better heed anything that CSM says. If he/she is the Division CSM, he indirectly wields the power of the commanding general. Remember, that CSM makes up 1/2 of the “Command Team”. Anything that CSM says is only a phone call away from becoming a direct order from the general, so you might as well do it now before it gets to that. Disrespecting a CSM would be a career ender for a LT. Hell, it could be a career ender for almost any officer, depending on the level of that CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/15 "2022-06-29T04:15:53Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > First big question is are you sure JT Walsh was Air Force? That is an Army & Marine Rank. Air Force uses Master Sergeant. In the movie (and I believe in real life) it was a joint command. There were all branches in the unit. Cronauer was in the Air Force. J.T. Walsh’s character was Army. Pat Sajak was in the same position as Cronauer a some time later and he was Army. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/16 "2022-06-29T10:01:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Pat Sajak was in the same position as Cronauer a some time later and he was Army. The actual Pat Sajak? He took over the radio later from the real life Cronauer? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/17 "2022-06-29T12:10:29Z")
There was a gap. He held the same position but didn’t take it over directly from Cronauer. > **['Wheel of Fortune': Pat Sajak Detailed Time in Army, Spoke on Getting to Say...](https://outsider.com/entertainment/wheel-of-fortune-pat-sajak-detailed-time-army-spoke-getting-say-good-morning-vietnam/amp/)** > > More than a decade before Pay Sajak began hosting Wheel of Fortune, he tried out his quips and rapport with an audience in an odd spot. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/18 "2022-06-29T12:48:11Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The “I work for a living” thing is used in real life with “Don’t Salute Me, I work for a living.” Sergeants and Chiefs do really say this. I’ve always found it strange that American NCOs are allowed to mock officers in front of the troops. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/19 "2022-06-29T12:58:22Z")
In the US at least, the old adage that Chiefs/Sergeants run the Navy/Army/Marines/Air Force is pretty much true. I understood that is pretty much true for the UK also. Is Israel different? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033/20 "2022-06-29T13:27:49Z")
Aren’t WOs sometimes technical specialists brought from outside as well? Still from what I gather, it’s the highly technical and specialized nature of their jobs that calls for warrant officers- a friend of mine was an officer in a CID unit at one point, and he commented that all the CID agents/investigators were warrant officers, because it was so highly specialized that they couldn’t really slot into the rest of the Army in any meaningful way as officers or enlisted. Historically warrant officers were commissioned/hired via a warrant, and were typically for specialized ship’s crew positions such as gunners, pursers, masters, surgeons, etc… while the regular commissioned officers were not specialized like that. So it would make sense that crime scene investigators might be warrant officers, and certain sorts of electricians, etc… but I’ve never understood why helicopter pilots would be warrant officers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-and-air-force-ranks-question-raised-by-good-morning-vietnam/967033.md?page=2)