# Army battles enlistment shortfall by recruiting autistic teen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494 "2006-05-12T12:47:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/1 "2006-05-12T12:47:26Z")
[Army Recruitment of Autistic Teen Raises Questions](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1952456&page=1) > [@](#): > > Earlier this week, 18-year-old Jared Guinther from Portland, Ore., was released from his four-year military commitment after The Oregonian newspaper reported that he should not have been enlisted, given his medical condition. He was diagnosed with autism at age 3. > > Guinther signed up to be a cavalry scout, one of the Army’s more dangerous assignments. > > The two Army recruiters involved in Guinther’s enlistment are now being investigated for potential recruiting improprieties. I am unwilling to chalk this up to an unintentional error, because the recruiters resisted releasing him from his commitment even after his parents produced his medical records: > [@](#): > > Guinther’s case first came to the attention of military officials after an Oregonian reporter contacted them with information that the recruiters refused to accept Guinther’s medical records, after the family complained to them about his recruitment. I don’t fault just the recruiters, who must be under enormous pressure to meet enlistment quotas; I fault the political leadership that creates the conditions under which this kind of over-zealous behavior occurs. Potential recruits are examining the willingness of the Decider to place them in harm’s way in the Iraq civil war, and concluding it is not worthy of their last full measure of devotion. It is despicable when a government must rely on the naiveté of the mentally challenged to provide the unending stream of warm bodies to prosecute this ill-considered and fraudulently sold war. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/2 "2006-05-12T13:34:04Z")
I’d heard of this. One thing that really jumped out at me from your link was the bit from Gaylan Johnson: > [@](#): > > Gaylan Johnson, a spokesman for the Military Entrance Processing Station in Portland, says the doctors conducting the physicals depend on recruits’ honest self-disclosure of any medical conditions. > > Johnson compared it to a recruit with a heart murmur. “An individual may or may not be aware of his condition, but since they’re intermittent and not on every heartbeat, when the stethoscope is on the chest the doctor doesn’t know any different,” he said. Clearly that person has no CLUE about autism, which wouldn’t show up on a physical any more than, say, depression, intermittent seizure disorders, or any other brain-based condition which would preclude one from military service. I live in fear of this sort of thing happening to **Dweezil** , who is pretty high-functioning but would not deal well with the pressures of boot camp; if he made it through that, I can see him panicking or freezing under fire and getting himself or his buddies killed, or winding up in military prison for disobeying orders or cowardice under fire ☹ ☹ ☹ Evidently TPTB in the situation here don’t give a rat’s ass about that sort of thing as long as they make their recruiting goals :mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/3 "2006-05-12T14:09:04Z")
Aren’t recruits given IQ tests? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/4 "2006-05-12T14:15:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Aren’t recruits given IQ tests? There’s some kind of basic aptitude test - I saw a website that showed sample questions - but it’s something any high school graduate or near-graduate should do OK on. The questions I saw were not especially challenging - read carefully and you stand a good chance of getting them right even if you guess. The boy in question scored toward the lower end of the acceptable range, but above the cutoff (IIRC, the range for acceptance started at 31 and he got 41, or something like that). Autism does not automatically mean mental retardation though I believe kids with autism would score lower on tests on average. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/5 "2006-05-12T14:15:32Z")
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but couldn’t a “high functioning” autistic person serve in _some_ capacity? While the pressure of a front-line position may well be out of the question, surely one could serve in, say, a clerk capacity somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/6 "2006-05-12T14:15:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Aren’t recruits given IQ tests? No. They take the ASVAB. (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) Believe it or not a low score is not a disqalifier it just means get to be a cook or truck driver or something. Ofcourse the recruiters don’t tell you you scored to low to do what you signed up to do. They let you ship off to boot camp with stars in your eyes about being an Airborne Ranger and let the drills tell you the bad news. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/7 "2006-05-12T14:29:13Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but couldn’t a “high functioning” autistic person serve in _some_ capacity? While the pressure of a front-line position may well be out of the question, surely one could serve in, say, a clerk capacity somewhere. That’s what I was thinking too; autism /= mental deficiency. Obviously an autistic person who can’t handle sensory overload would be driven nuts during a battle, but as you say there are other responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/8 "2006-05-12T14:42:48Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > That’s what I was thinking too; autism /= mental deficiency. Obviously an autistic person who can’t handle sensory overload would be driven nuts during a battle, but as you say there are other responsibilities. Sure, why not let in hemopheliacs, blind people, quad and paraplegic, hell let in everybody we are a society of inclusion, we can find duties that all people can perform in between medical treatments. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/9 "2006-05-12T14:53:16Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > That’s what I was thinking too; autism /= mental deficiency. Obviously an autistic person who can’t handle sensory overload would be driven nuts during a battle, but as you say there are other responsibilities. I would agree in principle, but others I’m sure have more information as to how accommodating the military is regarding various disabilities (my impression is “not very”). The trouble with that in this situation is you’ve got a recruit who appears pretty normal, and therefore might get assigned to something inappropriate by someone who didn’t know about the situation. In the case of the story referenced by the OP, what I read elsewhere strongly implied that the kid in question did not have the judgement to know what he was getting into. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/10 "2006-05-12T14:55:37Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but couldn’t a “high functioning” autistic person serve in _some_ capacity? While the pressure of a front-line position may well be out of the question, surely one could serve in, say, a clerk capacity somewhere. Someone serving the military in a clerical position without even the slightest possibility of facing actual combat is called a “civillian”. It’s true that many soldiers will never actually see combat, even during wartime, but they should all be ready to face the possibility of doing so. If you can’t be counted on to get up from your desk and grab a rifle should your post suddenly be overrun, you’ve got no business being in the service. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/11 "2006-05-12T15:09:58Z")
What **exactly** \*is \* Autism? How is it Diagnosed, is there a proven test? Do all medical experts agree on the diagnostics? [http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/anderson/DBruk.html](http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/anderson/DBruk.html) > **[Diagnosis of autism](https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7413/488.full)** > > \* > > Parents want autism to be diagnosed as early as possible, and early intervention may improve long term outcomes. The authors of this review discuss the identification and assessment process for children with autism and autistic spectrum... "\*Secondly, despite the organic basis of the disorder, the diagnostic criteria have been derived through consensus, rather than being organically based; no biological “test” exists for autism. Diagnostic cut-offs have been hard to define, because the manifestation of the core impairments and behaviours of autism varies greatly from person to person, as shown in the table.9 10 Symptoms vary in any single person with autism, and as autism is a developmental disorder change occurs over time.10 \* " > **[Autism Webinars](https://www.autism.org/webinars/)** > > Free webinars for people diagnosed with autism, parents, educators and professionals supporting medical and behavioral symptoms of ASDs. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/12 "2006-05-12T15:51:47Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > No. They take the ASVAB. (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) Believe it or not a low score is not a disqalifier it just means get to be a cook or truck driver or something. Ofcourse the recruiters don’t tell you you scored to low to do what you signed up to do. They let you ship off to boot camp with stars in your eyes about being an Airborne Ranger and let the drills tell you the bad news. Not true. Well, at least not when I served. You’ve already got your MOS assigned by the time you go to basic training. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/13 "2006-05-12T16:07:44Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Not true. Well, at least not when I served. You’ve already got your MOS assigned by the time you go to basic training. Agreed. This is my experience as well. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/14 "2006-05-12T16:16:26Z")
Well, my recruiting experience was with the US Navy, so it could differ from that of an Army recruit, but I took the ASVAB, and was told what I qualified for before I signed an enlistment contract. This was in 1980, if it makes any difference. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/15 "2006-05-12T16:19:53Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Not true. Well, at least not when I served. You’ve already got your MOS assigned by the time you go to basic training. I went in as 11x. That just means basic infantry. Then in Basic I was assigned to 11B and went to AIT for that. Many other guys were split off to different AIT. After jump school it changed to 11B P. After Ranger school it changed again. Maybe in non combat arms it is different or maybe its different now I joined almost 20 years ago. Then many people enlisted with a promise of Ranger School but many never got it based on performance in Basic and AIT. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/16 "2006-05-12T16:30:04Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I went in as 11x. That just means basic infantry. Then in Basic I was assigned to 11B and went to AIT for that. Many other guys were split off to different AIT. After jump school it changed to 11B P. After Ranger school it changed again. > Maybe in non combat arms it is different or maybe its different now I joined almost 20 years ago. Then many people enlisted with a promise of Ranger School but many never got it based on performance in Basic and AIT. Ah, you could very well be right. I was about as far away from a combat arms MOS as you could get. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/17 "2006-05-12T17:32:11Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I went in as 11x. That just means basic infantry. Then in Basic I was assigned to 11B and went to AIT for that. Many other guys were split off to different AIT. After jump school it changed to 11B P. After Ranger school it changed again. > Maybe in non combat arms it is different or maybe its different now I joined almost 20 years ago. Then many people enlisted with a promise of Ranger School but many never got it based on performance in Basic and AIT. You were promised an 11 series MOS and thats what you got. Going to a follow on school like ranger is much different than being lied to about your MOS. As to the OP and MammaZappa, believe it or not the Army is not filled with mindless drones. When I was in Basic we had a guy that I have always assumed had Autism. If not it was something similar. Those of us around him did the whole PVT Pyle thing, we helped him make his bed, shine his shoes etc. We started having conversations about if we should be helping him because why did we want him to graduate? Our lives might have to depend on him some day. Unknown to us the Drill Sergeants were thinking the same thing. They realized he didn’t belong there, despite the fact that he passed through the qualifications. He was being processed out of the Army before we were issued our first bullet during Basic Rifle Marksmanship. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/18 "2006-05-12T18:10:20Z")
“Autism” is just way too broad to conclude much of anything. People with [mild Asperger’s](http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html) are so different from nonverbal people with “classic” autism that predictive assertions are meaningless. I bet there was no way for the doctor or the recruiters to tell the kid had autism. ---
**Author:** ![liberty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/958977/32.png) [@liberty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/19 "2006-05-12T18:20:45Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > No. They take the ASVAB. (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) Believe it or not a low score is not a disqalifier it just means get to be a cook or truck driver or something. . What are you trying to say? That Truck drivers are stupid??? I Scored good on an IQ test given to me and fared very well at my 4 year school and got my B.S. degree. I drive a truck and I know plenty of other really intelligent people who drive trucks. Actually, you don’t need someone with a low IQ handling an 80,000 pound vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494/20 "2006-05-12T18:26:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Aren’t recruits given IQ tests? People with autism and related disorders are sometimes very intelligent and gifted, so an intelligence test wouldn’t necessarily warn you that anything was wrong. **Mama Zappa** may be right that they would struggle with that test; she’s got way more experience with autistic people than I do. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/army-battles-enlistment-shortfall-by-recruiting-autistic-teen/356494.md?page=2)