# Arne Duncan, kindly go f' yourself. (Standardized testing) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342 "2013-08-27T23:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/21 "2013-08-28T04:39:20Z")
I have known plenty of people with high school diplomas that cannot do basic arithmetic like adding fractions or calculating a percent, write a coherent paragraph, follow basic instructions, or locate mid-sized countries on a map. The high school diploma once meant something and it ought to, but currently it just doesn’t. Even if someone can do calculus and has regurgitated the requisite history facts, if they are lazy and unwilling, they should be considered less employable that a hardworking person with fewer academic skills or talents if the job does not directly involve higher levels of academic skill. Your “potential” means nothing to an employer if you refuse to do the work necessary to realize it. Jobs aside, the idea that we should just dismiss disabled students with a “too bad for you” says volumes about US, not them. If someone’s hard work and effort translate to nothing in your mind and you don’t mind discouraging them, you are the one with a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/22 "2013-08-28T07:01:01Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I have known plenty of people with high school diplomas that cannot do basic arithmetic like adding fractions or calculating a percent, write a coherent paragraph, follow basic instructions, or locate mid-sized countries on a map. The high school diploma once meant something and it ought to, but currently it just doesn’t. > Even if someone can do calculus and has regurgitated the requisite history facts, if they are lazy and unwilling, they should be considered less employable that a hardworking person with fewer academic skills or talents if the job does not directly involve higher levels of academic skill. Your “potential” means nothing to an employer if you refuse to do the work necessary to realize it. > **Jobs aside, the idea that we should just dismiss disabled students with a “too bad for you” says volumes about US, not them. If someone’s hard work and effort translate to nothing in your mind and you don’t mind discouraging them, you are the one with a problem**. No, not really. FFS, we don’t give out driver’s licenses because people tried really hard and made a genuine effort to drive correctly during their exam, even tho they ran 2 stop signs & almost hit the kids in the crosswalk before screeching to a halt; we give them out to people that have demonstrated the ability to drive safely and properly. As a public service we offer taxpayer funded schooling for 12 years or so for children. If a child is unable to show competency and/or knowledge in the required areas, then they shouldn’t get the certificate that says they are able to show competency and/or knowledge in the required areas. I’m certainly not suggesting that they should be punished, shamed or otherwise mistreated because of their inabilities (or disabilities), but they don’t deserve a diploma. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/23 "2013-08-28T07:04:17Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > A diploma isn’t an acknowledgment of hard work, it’s a certification that you’ve met all the criteria put in place that ensure a base level education. **Ambivalid** ’s got it. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/24 "2013-08-28T07:47:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > (Responding mostly to bolded part) > > Apparently most people, even you, think that a HS diploma holds some weight in the real world, or you wouldn’t be kvetching so much about how you kid should have one. You know that most employers want their employees, even the unskilled ones, to have a HS diploma, as at the very least it shows that the person showed up to school regularly for 12 or 13 years and mostly was able to learn the material presented. It carries a lot of weight that people can read and write and communicate with others in generally agreed-upon terms and styles. If it didn’t carry any weight in the real world, you wouldn’t have so much angst that your child might not get one, so trying to be flip about it just makes you look disgruntled. > > Because yeah, a HS diploma shows that you’ve been present for school and that you mostly understood the material presented and that you successfully did the work necessary to receive said diploma. It’s not just a “feel-good” achievement, and you know it. I was speaking from two different perspectives. To the individual, it does mean a lot. To an employer, HS diplomas are a dime a dozen. Their main concern is dependability. Like I said, they do want their employees to be able to read, but only on a very basic level. Anything more than that, you are likely to be tested or screened or work on a trail period. Giving an autistic child a diploma isn’t going to fuck that system all to hell. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, not really. > > FFS, we don’t give out driver’s licenses because people tried really hard and made a genuine effort to drive correctly during their exam, even tho they ran 2 stop signs & almost hit the kids in the crosswalk before screeching to a halt; we give them out to people that have demonstrated the ability to drive safely and properly. > > As a public service we offer taxpayer funded schooling for 12 years or so for children. If a child is unable to show competency and/or knowledge in the required areas, then they shouldn’t get the certificate that says they are able to show competency and/or knowledge in the required areas. I’m certainly not suggesting that they should be punished, shamed or otherwise mistreated because of their inabilities (or disabilities), but they don’t deserve a diploma. How is giving one a diploma a matter of public safety? Bad analogy, I’ll throw that one in the quarry. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/25 "2013-08-28T07:59:45Z")
I agree with the others, a diploma should mean the same for everybody. Also agree that ceremonies are important, I can see how getting a Certificate of Merit or some such could be a big deal. Cap and gown, pictures, people watching as you get a fancy piece of paper that says something nice. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/26 "2013-08-28T08:16:05Z")
It sounds like the disconnect is between those who think that what the OP wants represents a lowering of standards and those who don’t. (The OP, at least, doesn’t seem to think that it CAN get much lower, if I’m reading post #4 correctly.) Am I mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/27 "2013-08-28T09:03:20Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > I don’t know what kind of fucked up world you live in that you think disabled children can take the same tests as regular students and be expected to pass. But why should your child pass? If he isn’t qualified - he isn’t! ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/28 "2013-08-28T09:23:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But why should your child pass? If he isn’t qualified - he isn’t! If I said in order to pass PE class you have to slam dunk a basket ball; would you think that’s fair? Would you feel you have the same advantage as a 6’7’ person? All, I’m asking for is realistic goals for children like mine. And if the Holy Sacrament of giving a diploma to a lowly autistic child offends one’s sensibilities; fine, give him a “modified diploma” and don’t force him to impossible standards where he’s doomed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/29 "2013-08-28T10:11:38Z")
Right now in TX a standard diploma requires passing Alg II and Physics/Chemistry/Bio. The system makes no distinction between a kid who has mastered all but one of those and the kid that has never walked in the door. It’s ridiculous, and if you get rid of the special ed loopholes, it leaves a great many kids with no incentive beyond the legal to attend even one day of school because they will have no chance to achieve the only goal that is available. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/30 "2013-08-28T10:52:57Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > If I said in order to pass PE class you have to slam dunk a basket ball; would you think that’s fair? Would you feel you have the same advantage as a 6’7’ person? > > All, I’m asking for is realistic goals for children like mine. And if the Holy Sacrament of giving a diploma to a lowly autistic child offends one’s sensibilities; fine, give him a “modified diploma” and don’t force him to impossible standards where he’s doomed to fail. Speaking as someone who is just barely five feet tall…well, if dunking a basketball is what’s needed to pass PE, then yes, it’s fair. But hell, as it is right now in Texas, that basket is set at about a height of 5’2", maybe 5’6". So dunking the basketball is pretty much attainable for people who are even on the quite short end of normal height. Yes, it sucks if you are one of the very short Little People, but if dunking a basketball is a skill which even burger flippers need to use, then it’s unfair to everyone if someone has a lower basket than other people. I think that the problem is that you want your child to feel good about himself, even though he doesn’t have normal skills. I also think that you are setting him up for extreme disappointment later in life, because he ISN’T going to get realistic or modified goals in the workplace. He’s either going to have to meet the same goals as everyone else, or he won’t get the same rewards as everyone else. Texas educational standards are low enough. We need to be setting them higher. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/31 "2013-08-28T11:06:18Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Texas educational standards are low enough. We need to be setting them higher. No. They are not. They are set so god damned impossibly high that everyone is fudging lest no one graduate. Seriously. Have you read the TEKS? Reviewed the STARR tests for exit level? The standards are high and inflexible to the point of meaninglessness. Or are you basing this view of the standards on what they were when your own daughter was in school, years ago? Now, HB5 this summer has rearranged some things, and it may settle into some sort of more balanced system once we understand how it works. But the 4/4 + STAAR system we have been under in recent years set the standards entirely too high. There needs to be some way to distinguish “Knows nothing” from “basic competency”, and right now we don’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/32 "2013-08-28T11:18:14Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Speaking as someone who is just barely five feet tall…well, if dunking a basketball is what’s needed to pass PE, then yes, it’s fair. But hell, as it is right now in Texas, that basket is set at about a height of 5’2", maybe 5’6". So dunking the basketball is pretty much attainable for people who are even on the quite short end of normal height. Yes, it sucks if you are one of the very short Little People, but if dunking a basketball is a skill which even burger flippers need to use, then it’s unfair to everyone if someone has a lower basket than other people. > > I think that the problem is that you want your child to feel good about himself, even though he doesn’t have normal skills. I also think that you are setting him up for extreme disappointment later in life, because he ISN’T going to get realistic or modified goals in the workplace. He’s either going to have to meet the same goals as everyone else, or he won’t get the same rewards as everyone else. > > Texas educational standards are low enough. We need to be setting them higher. What vile crap! I could tell you all that’s wrong with this post but I’ve been working all night and I need to eat and go to bed. Jeesh! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/33 "2013-08-28T12:26:22Z")
Dude, take a step back, when you get up read [this .pdf](http://www.c-c-d.org/task_forces/education/CCD_Computer_Adaptive_Testing_final.pdf) It’s from the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, which includes the following organizations: Association of Assistive Technology Act Programs Association of University Centers on Disabilities Autism National Committee Conference of Educational Administrators of Schools and Programs for the Deaf Council for Exceptional Children Council for Learning Disabilities Council of Parent Attorneys and Advocates, Inc. Easter Seals Higher Education Consortium for Special Education Learning Disabilities Association of America National Association of State Directors of Special Education National Center for Learning Disabilities National Disability Rights Network National Down Syndrome Society School Social Work Association of America Teacher Education Division, Council for Exceptional The Advocacy Institute The Arc of the US United Cerebral Palsy These organizations are pushing for this exact change. Why? Teaching to the Test. From the last line of the .pdf > [@](#): > > A test that ensures that all students are measured on the full range of the intended curriculum establishes incentives for schools and teachers to give every student the opportunity to learn the appropriate grade level material. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/34 "2013-08-28T13:00:18Z")
It’s a harsh reality. A person with a disability does have some limitations. Let me ask the OP this: if a blind person worked real hard on studying for their driver’s exam, would you give them a driver’s license? Should they be given a special driver’s test to enable them to pass based on their hard work even if they can’t see the road? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/35 "2013-08-28T13:31:49Z")
I am curious as to the conditions that need to be met in order to obtain a high school diploma in the US. I used to teach English 101 at community colleges in Chicago, and the majority of my students were barely literate. Some of them didn’t even know what a paragraph was, or how to use periods and commas. I was left with the impression that anyone who could read was able to graduate high school in the US. Is it that Illinois just has lower standards than the rest of the country? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/36 "2013-08-28T13:51:06Z")
At this point in history, I’m not sure anyone knows or agrees what the hell a high school diploma is supposed to signify. Is it a certificate of attendance? A signal of college readiness? A verification of employment worthiness? A stamp of an educated citizenry? We don’t know. And when you get people with different ideas of what a high school diploma even means, you’re going to get ugly arguments. (Me, I’m a practicalist of the “educated citizenry” camp: I think anyone with a high school diploma should be able to demonstrate a mastery of mathematics including beginning statistics, algebra and geometry - the things you need to run a home and garden and balance a checkbook and understand a car loan, US and World History, US Government and how it works, Rhetoric and how not to be a sucker for it and Writing to the extent of competently drafting a business letter, resume, cover letter and letter of resignation. If you can’t do those things competently, you’re not going to be able to be an independent, contributing adult in our country…and that’s okay. Not everyone can be - but a high school diploma to \*me \*signifies that one is at least theoretically ready to do that.) But, whatever purpose you think a high school diploma has, then it has to have the same purpose for all students, or it may as well have no purpose at all. I’m glad that you’re okay with the idea of a “modified diploma” or “certificate” instead. I wish more parents - of students with and without disabilities - were cool with it. I do agree that the pomp and circumstance of a graduation is very socially important. But since it’s not at all important to anyone who isn’t student or family, I’ve got no cares what the piece of paper that’s handed out says - as long as it’s not later presented to a hiring manager or college admissions officer to say the child has mastered a curriculum s/he hasn’t mastered. **HazelNutCoffee** , a pulse seems to do it. Breathing regularly is optional. (My ex is also an English teacher, at DePaul. Holy crap, some of those papers are terrifying! …and DePaul is supposed to be a rigorous school with high entrance standards!) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/37 "2013-08-28T13:56:56Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > A diploma isn’t an acknowledgment of hard work, it’s a certification that you’ve met all the criteria put in place that ensure a base level education. Bingo. Diplomas and degrees are more or less the human equivalent of a testing standard. When you go get motor oil with the API starburst, SAE viscosity rating, and an API classification, you know that the oil has been tested and passed whatever the published requirements for that standard are. Diplomas are much the same; ideally they show that the holder has shown competency at the subjects taught in that particular curriculum. I agree that there should be some sort of alternate diploma or completion certificate or something along those lines for special education students, because it’s not fair to those students to not allow them to walk and participate and graduate because of their disabilities, but nor is it fair to give them the standard diploma if they didn’t meet the standards. I do think that we should be rather draconian on non-disabled students though; if you’re a moron and you fuck around and don’t learn, you shouldn’t get the diploma. It should mean something, not just mean that you managed to sit through high school and not get thrown in jail. You literally have to be mentally disabled not to graduate from high school; it’s just not hard at all, and wasn’t back in 1991 when I graduated. Getting a high GPA was hard, but just graduating would have been stupid easy. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/38 "2013-08-28T15:00:08Z")
Since the diploma already doesn’t consistently signify anything at all, maybe instead of a certificate for those who can’t meet a minimum level of academic achievement it would make more sense to give a certificate in addition to a diploma for those that DO meet it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/39 "2013-08-28T15:16:47Z")
**Shakes** , I am very, very sympathetic but this is a moronic pitting. At first I thought it was a parody of conservative complaints about how “everyone gets a winner’s trophy” in school sports. If you child does not meet the requirements to obtain a high school diploma _he should not receive a high school diploma_. I have no objection to the “modified diploma” idea, but it’s your job as the parent of a special needs child to push for something like that. It’s not Arne Duncan’s job to candy-coat life for your kid. What if your kid wasn’t autistic but was just really, really dumb? Would you demand that he receive a high school diploma just because he worked hard, even though he couldn’t read, write or do sums? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/40 "2013-08-28T15:33:11Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > If I said in order to pass PE class you have to slam dunk a basket ball; would you think that’s fair? Would you feel you have the same advantage as a 6’7’ person? > > All, I’m asking for is realistic goals for children like mine. And if the Holy Sacrament of giving a diploma to a lowly autistic child offends one’s sensibilities; fine, give him a “modified diploma” and don’t force him to impossible standards where he’s doomed to fail. And all I’m asking is to know that diplomas are worth something. Bad example with the PE, btw: while most of the times I failed that class was because the teacher was a bitch\*, there were times when for example the exam involved walking on an equilibrium bar, from end to end. And I wasn’t able to do it. And you know what? I failed that test - and giving me a passing grade would have been a fucking lie! - she even told her sister to flunk 4 of us and give 10s to 4 others regardless of actual performance, when the sister subbed for her - the sister proceeded to use the orders as TP [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342.md?page=3)