# Arne Duncan, kindly go f' yourself. (Standardized testing) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342 "2013-08-27T23:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/81 "2013-08-29T01:21:32Z")
I’m curious. If the diploma means so little to the OP as proof of a kid being able to do HS level work, why is her child in school? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/82 "2013-08-29T01:23:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Meanwhile, since then, NCLB has been refined, new programs, called “Common Core” and “Race to the Top”, which are less punitive than NCLB and focus more on rewarding successful schools than punishing failing ones, have been implemented, and and the creators of the standardized state tests have been refining them so that they can apply to both mainstream and special needs students. Common Core and Race to the Top exist to create a better workforce. Common Core in particular addresses the problem of the US falling behind the rest of the world in academic achievement. Special needs students will be pushed along with regular students to meet lofty goals. (“Lofty” is the word used in the white paper, I didn’t supply that.) > [@](#): > > My son is in a special ed class. He was very briefly put in a regular class but they moved him back. He’s not in a class of 25 students. I think his last class was 15 students. And the bottom line is, if the kid is still trying to learn his times tables and division, he’s NOT ready to be taught algebra. That’s it. Full stop. You can’t just hand wave that away because “time and resources”. The problem needs to be addressed. This by the way is something his teacher agrees with me on. For us, it is daughter #4 that has learning disabilities and an IEP. Daughter #3 attends a liberal arts college. Daughter #2 did the same, got bored, and transferred to a state school. Daughter #1 quit school at 17, got a job and a GED. There are no gifted students here; all have had to work their asses off and muddle through with little help at times. Sometimes, yes, mastering the work is the only reward. Except for whatever Mom does. 🙂 But we are, without a doubt, living in a time of higher expectations and tight budgets, and a lot of educratic soup directed toward Special Ed. I have no trouble believing what you’ve written. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/83 "2013-08-29T04:09:52Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > If you want to help someone succeed, you have to award effort, the part that they have some control over, not achievement of fixed benchmarks. School is supposed to somewhere we send our kids because it is in their interest to learn, not **a place to weed out those that don’t make the cut so society can decide which mill they are suitable grist for.** Then where _should_ we be sending kids for that process? I mean, it’s not like it doesn’t need doing, is it? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/84 "2013-08-29T13:29:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Algebra II, for one. These are the TEKS for high school math in TX. Look at the Algebra II ones, and tell me that someone who has a solid understanding of Alg I and Geometry but can’t do exponential and logarithmic functions and a ton of other stuff is basically uneducated. That’s how low you’re suggesting we set the bar for high school students? Algebra II is too hard for non-college bound, non special-needs students? No wonder high school diplomas are effectively meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/85 "2013-08-29T14:12:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Then where _should_ we be sending kids for that process? > > I mean, it’s not like it doesn’t need doing, is it? Does it? Why? And should it take 13 years? How about some proficiency tests? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/86 "2013-08-29T16:11:36Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > My son works hard, he desrves to put on a gown and cap and walk across that stage with the rest of his class. Where did Arne Duncan say your kid shouldn’t be allowed to put on a gown and cap and walk across that stage with the rest of his class? ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/87 "2013-08-29T18:54:11Z")
My son is autistic and has mental retardation. His IQ is 40-60 depending upon his focus at the time of testing. He has an IEP (Individualized Education Program) that specifies the goals on which he is working. We are so proud that he can read some works now. He’s working on understanding meaning. We are thrilled that he can do single-digit and some double-digit arithmetic! We now think that he might just get to the point of being able to hold a simple supervised job! If he gets a high school diploma for meeting his IEP goals, that’s great. If he doesn’t get a diploma because he hasn’t met the high school criteria, that’s understandable. He’s on the stroke-school swim team and Special Olympics swimming. He’s worked hard and has learned the strokes, and flip turn, but his diving needs work. If he swims in a meet and does the wrong kick in the stroke or flip-turns without the right touch he will be disqualified. It doesn’t matter that he is working hard or has trouble learning or focusing. We put him in late to Cub Scouts because we thought he couldn’t do it even though he loves camping and hiking. We worked with him and he Just met the criteria to earn the badges and get Super Achiever! Now that he’s in Boy Scouts it’s harder. There are alternate requirements for those with disabilities and we’ll be working with those as needed. But I’m not going to let him be given a badge that he doesn’t earn, no matter how hard he tries. It dishonors the badge and him. I can’t see him getting Eagle or even some higher ranks, but we’ll try. We try lots of things. He is praised for his work and achievements. He just doesn’t get recognition for things he doesn’t achieve. That makes his achievements Real. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/88 "2013-08-29T22:02:13Z")
> [@Corner\_Case](#): > > My son is autistic and has mental retardation. His IQ is 40-60 depending upon his focus at the time of testing. He has an IEP (Individualized Education Program) that specifies the goals on which he is working. We are so proud that he can read some works now. He’s working on understanding meaning. We are thrilled that he can do single-digit and some double-digit arithmetic! We now think that he might just get to the point of being able to hold a simple supervised job! > > If he gets a high school diploma for meeting his IEP goals, that’s great. If he doesn’t get a diploma because he hasn’t met the high school criteria, that’s understandable. > > He’s on the stroke-school swim team and Special Olympics swimming. He’s worked hard and has learned the strokes, and flip turn, but his diving needs work. If he swims in a meet and does the wrong kick in the stroke or flip-turns without the right touch he will be disqualified. It doesn’t matter that he is working hard or has trouble learning or focusing. > > We put him in late to Cub Scouts because we thought he couldn’t do it even though he loves camping and hiking. We worked with him and he Just met the criteria to earn the badges and get Super Achiever! Now that he’s in Boy Scouts it’s harder. There are alternate requirements for those with disabilities and we’ll be working with those as needed. But I’m not going to let him be given a badge that he doesn’t earn, no matter how hard he tries. It dishonors the badge and him. I can’t see him getting Eagle or even some higher ranks, but we’ll try. > > We try lots of things. He is praised for his work and achievements. He just doesn’t get recognition for things he doesn’t achieve. That makes his achievements Real. Where is the Like button? ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/89 "2013-08-29T22:14:33Z")
Shakes, here in FL we have special diploma options for ESE students. They most certainly can walk across the stage at graduation. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/90 "2013-08-30T02:31:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s how low you’re suggesting we set the bar for high school students? Algebra II is too hard for non-college bound, non special-needs students? No wonder high school diplomas are effectively meaningless. I know, right? I took that in 8th grade and I’m no math rock star. I have to whip out Wolfram Alpha for all sorts of basic math; just today I was trying to figure out some ROI matters and it was painfully slow going. Still, sticking a kid not ready for basic algebra in an algebra class is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/91 "2013-08-30T04:19:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I know, right? I took that in 8th grade and I’m no math rock star. I have to whip out Wolfram Alpha for all sorts of basic math; just today I was trying to figure out some ROI matters and it was painfully slow going. > > Still, sticking a kid not ready for basic algebra in an algebra class is stupid. Really? Exponential and logarithmic functions in eighth grade? I knew my school was far behind; they didn’t even let us attempt them until we were juniors. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/92 "2013-08-30T11:52:29Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > Really? Exponential and logarithmic functions in eighth grade? I knew my school was far behind; they didn’t even let us attempt them until we were juniors. Kumon + Saxon does wonders. The OP’s schools is not doing wonders. Your high school may have been restrictive, but surely you had college classmates who arrived having completed two years of calculus (or more)? That pretty much requires taking precal in 9th or 10th grade, or doubling up on math one year, which I would have found arduous but maybe people do that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/93 "2013-08-30T15:06:37Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > Really? Exponential and logarithmic functions in eighth grade? I knew my school was far behind; they didn’t even let us attempt them until we were juniors. For it was this: 7th grade - Algebra 1 8th grade - Algebra 2 9th grade - Geometry 10th grade - Trig & Analytic Geometry 11th grade - AG2 & Pre-calc 12th grade - AP Calc And that was back in the early '80s, when AP classes were a new thing (my graduating class was the first to have AP Calc, AP English, AP Biology, etc. classes offered in my high school). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/94 "2013-08-30T15:10:18Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > **Bo** , Pit me all you like. Call me any name in the book if it makes you feel better. But please don’t take swipes at my kid. I’m the one who opened this thread and I should be the only one open to criticism. Since I didn’t take any swipes at your kid, I’ll conclude that a) you’re kind of stupid and b) you’re too invested in this subject emotionally to be very rational about it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/95 "2013-08-30T16:06:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > For it was this: > > 7th grade - Algebra 1 > 8th grade - Algebra 2 > 9th grade - Geometry > 10th grade - Trig & Analytic Geometry > 11th grade - AG2 & Pre-calc > 12th grade - AP Calc > > And that was back in the early '80s, when AP classes were a new thing (my graduating class was the first to have AP Calc, AP English, AP Biology, etc. classes offered in my high school). This is the schedule of my son’s math courses. He is a sophomore this year. It is considered “advanced” by one year as our district considers Algebra 1 to be an 8th grade standard. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/96 "2013-08-30T16:20:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Since I didn’t take any swipes at your kid, I’ll conclude that a) you’re kind of stupid and b) you’re too invested in this subject emotionally to be very rational about it. Sure you did. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you sure **your kid is autistic and not just stupid**? I mean, maybe he just takes after you. You called his kid stupid, in trying to insult **Shakes**. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342/97 "2013-08-30T16:31:36Z")
Wow, what a piece of shit thing to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arne-duncan-kindly-go-f-yourself-standardized-testing/667342.md?page=4)