# Arrest made in JonBenet Ramsey case **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008 "2006-08-16T20:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/301 "2006-08-21T20:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=wring] from [here](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/it_5.html) the note was written on paper from the house, therefore, not done ahead of time and brought to the house. whoever it was spent a substantial amount of time in the house, apparently w/o fear of discovery by the rest of the people there. [/QUOTE] I just thought of this… In juxtaposition of all the theories that abound, what if this really was a botched kidnapping? Say someone knew the Ramseys tangentially, like a co-worker of John, but really far off the radar. This person might have access to the house via a Christmas party that everyone from there got invited to by via default. Repeat a time or two for various ‘special’ occasions. Then, my hypothetical killer, would also (perhaps through the grapevine) learn of the supposed bonus amount. All the better to frame that nasty uppity man! Now in the midst of all this, the plot is hatched to coincide with the winter holidays and somehow a tablet of theirs is acquired _in advance_. Yeah, I know it’s a stretch, but so is the whole damn case, right? Anyway, it could have been a useful memento from a trip inside the house, when left alone, and on the way to the bathroom (or back yard for a smoke). All that accomplished, the perp strikes while he knows everyone will be gone but JonBenet. However, she struggles more than she should (and maybe this is where it excites him – which he figures is a “what the hell, I’m already in for a penny” moment and follows through to some degree) and the next thing you know, she’s dead and the rest is up shit creek. Now I realize that’s all probably BS speculation. And has enough holes to drive a Mac truck through, but boy howdy, it’s interesting to consider. Plus, isn’t that the best we have to offer now, just wild ass guesses? Karr notwithstanding. Because we certainly haven’t seemed to get anywhere, with the Denver PD leading, with reasoned reflection. ~faithfool, off-the-wall minor sleuth ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/302 "2006-08-21T20:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=kambuckta] Interestingly, in todays newspaper, the reporting of the Ramsey case seems to now agree with those of you who prophesised that Karr is a nutjob who is (for whatever reason) claiming responsibility for JonBenet’s murder while quite probably not her assailant. Which now brings up the question…how the HELL has this been allowed to get so far, and with so much publicity? How on earth did, ‘Yet another loon confesses to Ramsey murder’ turn into ‘Ten-year old case SOLVED’ without adequate investigation and follow-up? Who released the info to the media, and what was their motivation? Is this just yet _another_ fuckup in the long and sordid saga? **That** is what puzzles me now. :dubious: [/QUOTE] There have been many people to already confess to killing JonBenet Ramsey. Just as for every famous serial killer out there there were multiple people who confessed to being the killer. In general the nutjob confessions don’t make it very far because law enforcement can easily spot them and dismiss them after some rudimentary police work. The reason this has gone as far as it has, at least from what we know _publicly_ is that Karr knows something about the case that has never been released to the public (and still hasn’t.) Which means whatever he knows, is significant enough yet secret enough that it has never found its way out onto the wide world of the internet in all these years. The rest of this story, I think, needs to just be left alone until Karr is extradited to Colorado and the charges of murder go through against him. At that time, if the DA has significant evidence it will come to light, for sure. A whole lot of the stuff that was contradictory/weird that we’ve heard since Karr surfaced hasn’t even come from the mouths of the people who arrested/interviewed Karr. The authorities who will actually be prosecuting Karr have in fact said very little. And until they make some more official statements with some sort of information I think everyone is just working themselves up in wild speculation. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/303 "2006-08-21T20:34:38Z")
> [@](#): > > And as for Karr, he loves young girls, but he wants to be a woman- how weird is that (assuming its true)? I’ve said elsewhere that I’ll bet (assuming it’s true) that he wants go become a girl/become JBR, not become a _woman._ ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/304 "2006-08-21T20:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > What would be Ramsey’s motive for killing JonBenet? She seems to me to have been \*over-\*killed. This suggests to me either 1) rage; or 2) an accidental death (i.e., you push someone and she hits her head) camouflaged by other deadly means. I still think this was an accidental death, possibly caused by a family member (especially another kid) or close family friend, that was covered up by one or both parents. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/305 "2006-08-21T20:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=faithfool] All that accomplished, the perp strikes while he knows everyone will be gone but JonBenet. [/QUOTE] she was not left home alone. > [@](#): > > According to the Ramseys’ testimony, they drove home the few blocks from a party at a friend’s house on Christmas night. JonBenet had fallen asleep in the car so they carried her up the stairs to her room and put her to bed at 9:30 p.m. Shortly after, Patsy and John went to bed as they planned to get up early to prepare for a trip to their holiday home on Lake Michigan. > > The next day, Patsy woke just after 5:00 a.m. the whole family was in the house. FOrensics put TOD between 10 pm and 6 am with emphasis on earlier times. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/306 "2006-08-21T21:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=wring] she was not left home alone. the whole family was in the house. FOrensics put TOD between 10 pm and 6 am with emphasis on earlier times. [/QUOTE] Aw crap **wring** , how did I forget that?? I tip my hat to you while I hang my head in shame. :smack: Ok, now I’m truly chastised. 😛 Moving along, may I then swap that part in my theory to postulate that the killer was already in the house? Being all stealthy like and everything, since he was so intimate to all the intricacies surrounding the family, doncha know. 🆒 Yeah, I suck. Which means I’ll give up. ::: ominous drum roll cue and plea for more gratuitous smiley usage ::: For now. 😃😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/307 "2006-08-21T21:52:45Z")
Oh, is it time for WAGing now? Here’s mine, then: Patsy wrote the ransom note because she thought that John did it and she was desperate to divert suspicion from him. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/308 "2006-08-21T21:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] As others have already pointed out, your assertion that there is/was **NO** evidence against the Ramseys is pure, unmitigated bullshit. In fact, most of the evidence did indeed point in their direction, and much of it still does. I am definitely not trying to argue that the Ramseys are guilty, but I’m simply providing a list of highly suspicious evidence which tends to point to them and in any case most emphatically makes them main suspects. For a random list, consider: [/quote] Obviously you’re just refusing to read the posts that have been put here, or the links within them. > [@](#): > > – John Ramsey tried the first day to arrange at short notice to leave Boulder on business, even after finding his daughter dead. I have no idea as to the veracity of this claim. Considering you keep making patently false claims about handwriting and snow cover, I don’t think it is out of line to ask for a cite on this one. > [@](#): > > – The ostensible ransom note was similar in its style and orthography to Patsy Ramsey’s, and an expert insists she may well be the author and cannot be ruled out, although no one claims a perfect match. However, Patsy reportedly changed her handwriting after the murder (I don’t know how much credence to give this last claim). Again, from what I’ve read, “The samples of handwriting that John and Patsy provided to the police were later found to bear no similarities to those on the ransom note.” The similarities suggested, to my knowledge, come from a private linguistics scholar who was hired to assist Steve Thomas, a former lead detective in the case, write a book demonizing and accusing the Ramseys of the murder. This linguistic scholar, Donald Foster, had previously said that his opinion was the note was written by an adolescent who had quickly written it out in a panic. Donald Foster had offered his services to the Ramseys based on his _existing observations_ of the ransom note. The Ramseys turned down his help. It was only _after_ Foster was hired to help right a scandalous book little better than tabloid garbage that he suddenly made his “analysis” that it bore a similarity to Patsy Ramsey’s handwriting. Obviously Foster has no reason to lie here, other than money and prestige. And law enforcement obviously has just decided to maintain that Patsy Ramsey’s handwriting does not match that of the ransom note. > [@](#): > > – The Ramseys agreed to take polygraphs, which indicates that they thought they were reliable, but they refused to take the most objectively administered polygraphs by the FBI. The same FBI that was assisting the Boulder police in a campaign to have them convicted for the murder of their daughter? The Ramseys initially made an agreement with the Boulder police to take polygraph exams conducted by an independent expert in Atlanta. The Boulder police agreed, however their idea of an “independent expert” was an FBI examiner. IE a member of law enforcement. The Ramseys continued to suggest eminent men in the fields of polygraphy, to continually have the Boulder police reject anyone who was not the FBI examiner. The Ramseys even recommended Edward Gelb as the man to conduct the tests. Edward Gelb is a former president of the American Polygraphy Associationn. He was selected from a pool of 2,400 testers because he was the most experienced, having conducted _30,000_ tests over 30 years. Gelb had served as a _trainer_ to the FBI and the Department of Defense. He was also known in the industry for his fairness and expertise. But again the Boulder police rejected this man, the guy who TAUGHT some of the FBI examiners, because he wasn’t a member of law enforcement and this wasn’t an “independent” expert. Finally, Richard Keifer, Chairman of the American Polygraph Association made the offer that they would conduct an examination to the same standards as the FBI and with the same controls. The actually person chosen to conduct the examination would be left up to the APA, so that an _independent third party of experts_ was going to _choose_ an independent expert to conduct the exam. The Boulder Police again refused to sign on for this exam. On May 24th the Ramseys decided to have Gelb conduct polygraph tests on them independently, as opposed to in agreement and cooperation with the Boulder PD. The results of the tests showed the Ramseys to have not harmed or killed JonBenet. Gelb’s test results were reviewed and confirmed by Cleve Baxter, founder of the CIA’s polygraph unit. Robert Lee, the director of operations for Axciton Systems, the company that produces the polygraph equipment used by Gelb said the test results were 97-98 percent accurate. > [@](#): > > – There was no reasonably suggestive sign of an intruder’s entry, and the lack of footprints in the snow around the house (which I discuss below), while a long way from conclusive, were at least suspicious enough to warrant noting by the police. Now, Mr. Hyde claims that this has been debunked, but he’s dead wrong. It’s inconclusive in fact and under law, but it’s damned suspicious anyway. How could an intruder have known in advance that he would have not made a trail in the snow? Here is a quote from [www.crimelibrary.com](http://www.crimelibrary.com) with information about the footprints: > [@](#): > > The first point to come under scrutiny is the snow cover. News video footage shot on December 26 clearly shows that large areas surrounding the house had no snow cover at all. In support of this, Julie Hayden, the television reporter states: > > “We looked at the videotape once the footprints in the snow started becoming an issue and one of the things that I observed was, there did not seem to be snow going up to all of the doors. So, in my opinion, this thing about footprints in the snow has always been much ado about nothing because it seemed clear to me that people could have gotten in the house, whether they did or not, without traipsing through the snow.” Here is another quote about the lack of forced entry: > [@](#): > > Even more doubtful was the claim of “no forced entry.” The police report on December 26 noted that there were a number of open windows and at least one open door, therefore an intruder would not need to break in. One possible point of entry was the basement window. Not only was it easily accessible via a ground level lift-out grille, it had been broken sometime before Christmas and could not be secured. These facts, although well documented by the police, did not come to public attention until a year after the event. Further evidence of “forced entry”: -A footprint was found in the dust of the wine cellar made by a Hi-Tec hiking boot that hasn’t been linked to the Ramseys or anyone who may have been in their home. -An unidentified palm print was found on the door of the wine cellar. -A piece of broken glass was found under a basement window, the window was broken and still showed signs of disturbance. -There was a scuff-mark on the basement wall below the window. To get back out the basement window you would have to climb said wall, which would obviously have left scuff marks. -The duct tape and cord used in the murder were not found in the Ramsey home, meaning these materials from which the bindings/murder weapon were made came from outside the home (or at least were later hidden by anyone inside the home who may have committed the murder, and have never been found since.) > [@](#): > > – The ransom note is very bizarre and reads far more like a bogus note written under the pressure of trying to escape blame for an accidental killing, which meshes with the Ramsey’s as the guilty party (but of course it also meshes with an intruder’s accidental murder as well). This was not an accidental killing. A garrote is an instrument designed to kill, its use is deliberate and requires some degree of significant premeditation. JonBenet Ramsey’s autopsy reveals she was killed by asphyxiation from the garrote, she also suffered blunt trauma but the autopsy report is clear in that the garroting was what did her in. > [@](#): > > (1) But what about the respect it shows for John and his business acumen? Why would an intruder praise his victim’s father like that? Why not? If it’s truly a half-assed ransom note put together at the spur of the moment it’s hard to say what may come out. Whoever did this, be it Karr or someone else, had to have done some research into the Ramseys. Maybe he really did respect John as a businessman. > [@](#): > > (2) And then there is the much-commented-upon weird amount asked for: $118,000. This is a truly trivial amount of money, especially since there was no kidnapping and the murderer would have known damn well the Ramsey’s wouldn’t have paid once they found their dead daughter anyway. Again, this is all pure speculation on your part. Not “evidence” against the Ramseys of any kind. Many kidnappings involve bizarre or even nonsensical ransom notes. A ransom note written on the spur of the moment isn’t going to make sense. The ransom note could easily have been written just to buy time for the murderer to get out of the area. > [@](#): > > (3) And of course it’s ridiculously, _stupidly_ speculative to think someone other than the Ramseys would have both known the exact amount of John’s bonus **and** have access to the house. If the Ramseys did this, do you really think that they would use John’s bonus amount in a ransom note? _Even in the spur of the moment_, if said ransom was not something that multiple persons already knew? > [@](#): > > (4) And what of the strong sense of femininity in the wording and style? What other woman had a link to the case but Patsy? And why keep referring to Ramsey as “John” so personally and friendly-like when the note starts off referring to “Mr. Ramsey”? It appears John Mark Karr has a strong sense of femininity. Why interchange between “John” and “Mr. Ramsey.” I doubt that Karr knew Ramsey personally, so it is hard to say he had any habit of referring to him in either way. He probably started with “Mr. Ramsey” because that is a cliched way of referring to someone in a ransom note, and he probably began to use it interchangeably with John because he was trying to scrawl out what he felt was a convincing ransom note and get out of the home before he was discovered. > [@](#): > > (5) The note was written on Patsy’s personal stationery. Why not just write it on the first thing that came to hand? Um, how do you know the stationery wasn’t the first thing that came to hand? It’s obvious he probably could have found a cereal box or something to write it on, but it is a multiple page note, so stationery seems well suited to it and maybe the Ramseys didn’t have spiral notebooks laying all around or sheets of paper readily apparent to someone who doesn’t know every nook and cranny of the house. > [@](#): > > (6) The note contains unusual wording that was also used by the Ramseys, and in the same manner. Yeah, I think the biggest association is that the note uses “hence” and the Ramseys have used “hence” in the past. And some like to argue that “hence” is such an extremely rare word that no two individuals could independently use it. > [@](#): > > But the main point is that an intruder simply would NOT have written ANY note, so the mere _existence_ of the note is more evidence of the likely involvement of Patsy Ramsey. How can you honestly make a bold claim that an intruder “simply would NOT have written ANY note”? What evidence is there that intruders wouldn’t write notes? Most people who sexually assault and brutally murder six year olds typically aren’t sane, rational individuals. He could have written the note just to string the Ramseys on. Or maybe he’s just stupid and thought it was the smart thing to do. Either way, there are a million reasons he may have left a note, just because it would have been better for him to NOT leave a note, doesn’t mean an intruder _wouldn’t._ If all criminals never did things that they shouldn’t do then criminals would never get caught, while in fact in the real world their own stupidity is the downfall of many criminals. > [@](#): > > – The Ramseys behaved _extremely_ suspiciously everywhere I saw them, and justified or not, they vehemently refused to cooperate very much with investigators. They began to behave suspiciously once they were with the understanding that _they_ were being investigated by the police, not being used as aids in finding JonBenet’s killer. Guilty or innocent, one is not wise to start getting in bed with the police if you are being investigated for a crime. A friend of the Ramseys was one of the first to take notice of the fact that the police were coming after _them_ and he began advising them from that point on to be very cautious in their dealings with the police. Regardless, while maintaining what is only a healthy amount of caution in the face of a persecutorial police investigation the Ramseys _did_ cooperate to a great extent with investigators, they even did so when it could possibly just serve to help incriminate themselves. > [@](#): > > (3) The claim (repeated here by Martin Hyde) that there was no or insufficient snow for an intruder to disturb is worthless, since by the time anyone got around to investigating this possibility and taking photographs, the ground around the home was thoroughly trampled (not to mention that the snow might have melted). The entire “no footprints” thing is based off of an off comment by one of the police officers who was _working in a very small role_ at the crime scene. It was repeated to a journalist who ran with it. It was never a serious part of the investigation or the evidence against the Ramseys. Sure, the snow could have melted, or been trampled, or, it may have just never covered the entire yard (like I suspect.) Considering the complete lack of professionalism in the dealing with the crime scene and evidence in general that was shown by the Boulder police, if there WAS any evidence in the snow, I have no doubts that the Boulder police would have thoroughly trampled all over it long before it could be discovered. Anyways, it is SNOW, footprints or lack there of aren’t evidence. The absence of evidence isn’t the evidence of absence. Considering no real evidence exists either way, we cannot just “assume” the evidence, if it had been preserved or recorded properly, would have been indicative of the Ramseys. There’s also no reason to assume the entire yard was covered, because as I’ve already shown people are saying _large areas_ of the yard were devoid of snow. I’ve seen trampled snow, I’ve seen melted snow. If the yard was truly covered in snow, trampling or not, melting or not, some evidence of snow being in those parts of the yard where it had been trampled/melted would have remained. > [@](#): > > Look, it’s way, way too late to continue, but there’s lots more evidence to suggest their involvement. All I want is for those who insist there was **NO** evidence against the Ramseys, like **Dio** , to accept that they overreached and that there was and is good reason to suspect them. And since my WAG is that this Karr thing isn’t going to pan out, we have to get used to the fact that they will remain the prime suspects. I’ve yet to see a single piece of compelling evidence against the Ramseys. What I have seen is: 1. In an investigation in which evidence was routinely mishandled. Such an investigation has the audacity to provide “lack” of certain evidence (such as footprints or forced entry–the latter of which there was evidence) as “evidence” against the Ramseys. Furthermore said “lack” of evidence has been used extensively as “evidence” by the media against the Ramseys. There has been distortions, outright misrepresentations of fact, and wild speculation being reported as “fact” about the case so much that many of them have shown up in this thread despite being repeatedly dismissed. 2. Extremely spurious handwriting claims against Patsy Ramsey. Claims that have never been supported by law enforcement to my knowledge. Claims made by a man who was spurned by the Ramseys and was in the employ of a former Detective writing a tell all when he made the damning analysis that pointed to Patsy Ramsey. 3. Repeated investigation into the Ramseys, both with and without their cooperation. The Ramsey house was raided in a “pornography” raid to try and implicate John, JonBenet’s tombstone was bugged with the hopes that the parents might come by for a tearful confession. The Ramseys submitted to multiple interviews, DNA testings, handwriting analysis and etc for authorities. The Ramseys gave 4-5 handwriting samples each. One final sample given by Patsy was done multiple times with _both_ hands. And yet not even remotely enough evidence ever came to the surface to even support a serious attempt at an indictment. There was “no” evidence in that there was no evidence remotely compelling of an indictment. There was no evidence pointing to the Ramseys that was any more compelling that evidence you could probably find implicating any random person. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/309 "2006-08-21T22:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] She seems to me to have been \*over-\*killed. This suggests to me either 1) rage; or 2) an accidental death (i.e., you push someone and she hits her head) camouflaged by other deadly means. I still think this was an accidental death, possibly caused by a family member (especially another kid) or close family friend, that was covered up by one or both parents. [/QUOTE] She was killed by [ligature strangulation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_strangulation). More specifically circumferential ligature strangulation with associated ligature furrow on the neck. IE a cord (in this case a garrote) was wrapped around her neck, tightened, and held until she died. This is not something that happens accidentally. This is as reported in the official autopsy. While other injuries were evidenced as well, the medical examiner’s expert opinion is she was strangled to death with a cord of rope, which was also found around her neck. I am not a medical examiner, or a medical professional of any kind. However I assume that a medical examiner can tell the difference between a body that has been killed by strangulation, and a corpse that has had a cord tightened around its neck to make it appear as though the person died of strangulation when in fact the person died from some blunt trauma (which could easily be accidental–result of a shove or even the child tripping.) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/310 "2006-08-21T22:15:11Z")
I don’t disagree about the coroner’s report, except that if a person fell over after blunt trauma (i.e., pushed her too hard, she hit the floor) and the perp thought she was dead, or thought it would now be better if she were dead, or wanted to cover up, I assume that further panicked or quick action might confuse the cause of death. Unrelated to this post, but to keep from DPing, here’s a [tidbit:](http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/national/article/0,1406,KNS_350_4933543,00.html) > [@](#): > > The email address that helped track down John Mark Karr in Thailand was December251996(at)[yahoo.com](http://yahoo.com) - the date of her murder. That really seems to me to be obsessive behavior, not the behavior of a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/311 "2006-08-21T22:49:29Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] _“The email address that helped track down John Mark Karr in Thailand was December251996(at)[yahoo.com](http://yahoo.com) - the date of her murder.”_ That really seems to me to be obsessive behavior, not the behavior of a murderer. [/QUOTE] I thought she was killed on the 26th. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/312 "2006-08-22T02:54:57Z")
What is Ramsey doing now? Why is the press not pestering him for interviews or are they? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/313 "2006-08-22T03:53:39Z")
[QUOTE=Jean Poutine] And as for Karr, he loves young girls, but he wants to be a woman- how weird is that (assuming its true)? [/QUOTE] There is a person like this who is very vocal in the trans communities (the ones he hasn’t been banned from anyway). He had a link to a journal of another “little girl lover” who wrote that it’s easier to be a female pedophile because people trust you with their kids more. Like Karr, this individual claims to identify strongly with little girls to the point of wanting to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/314 "2006-08-22T07:12:53Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I thought she was killed on the 26th. [/QUOTE] Her gravestone reads December 25th. Also, I thought that it was said that Karr allegedly knew details of the crime that _weren’t **widely** known_, not that they were not known at all? The crime sleuthing message board I linked to has said they have been asked not to put forwards some “known facts” about the case by law enforcement because they are very obscure and they want to keep them that way. Apparently the medical examiner (blanking on his name, he was called on for the O.J. trial) slipped up at one point and gave the details in an interveiw. If a person was obsessed about the case they could find the information. These things are discusssed at the sleuthing site I linked to in previous posts, go read my links if you want to read for yourself. I think it is in a thread titled approximately JonBoney arrest pt. 2, or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/315 "2006-08-22T08:09:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] Wow, why did nobody think of that before? :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] 'Cept I’ve never heard of anyone come up with a good explaination as to how Ramsey could do it and be so brutal in the killing (and not have a suspicious trail of other dead bodies in his wake). It’s always either: See what a sick fucker he is, look at how he murdered his daughter or it _couldn’t_ be him, because there’s no way he’d be capable of doing such a brutal act to his daughter because he’s not been a suspect in any other brutal slayings. I’m saying that there’s a _third_ possibility, that the initial injury/killing was accidental, and the brutality was done to throw suspicion off of him. 'Course I haven’t been following the case closely so maybe someone’s brought that possibility up. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/316 "2006-08-22T09:17:59Z")
Today’s amusing datoids include: Arguments for and against Karr’s yearbook handwriting [matching the ransom note Karr’s ex-father-in-law producting a [url=[http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/15328861.htm](http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/15328861.htm)]photo of Karr’s kids]([http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN\_15\_4934911,00.html](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4934911,00.html)) at Christmas dinner, 12/24/96 Too many expressions of outrage to cite them all about Karr eating the meals provided in business class, apparently written by people who don’t understand that everyone in that section of the plane was also eating king crab, pate, etc. Aw, what the hell, [url=[Karr set for L.A. court today – The Denver Post](http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4217608)]here’s one: > [@](#): > > Katie Natale, an administrative assistant in Boulder, said that if it were up to her, she “wouldn’t feed him anything.” ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/317 "2006-08-22T09:28:57Z")
Today’s amusing datoids include: Arguments for and against Karr’s yearbook handwriting[matching](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4934911,00.html)the ransom note. Karr’s ex-father-in-law produces a photo purportedly showing [Karr’s kids at Christmas dinner, 12/24/96.](http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4217608) Too many expressions of outrage to cite them all about Karr eating the meals provided in business class, apparently written by people who don’t understand that everyone in that section of the plane was also eating king crab, pate, etc. Aw, what the hell, [here’s one:](http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4217608) > [@](#): > > Katie Natale, an administrative assistant in Boulder, said that if it were up to her, she “wouldn’t feed him anything.” And I saw something alleging that the SRS clinic now denies that they said anything to the media, because that would violate privacy. I’ll see if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/318 "2006-08-22T10:10:16Z")
Okay, here’s the cite that the Thai SRS clinic is [backpedaling/conflicted over their story.](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4935081,00.html) Here’s an allegation that Karr’s mother [tried to kill him](http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2339385&page=1) as a child and was later institutionalized. The [NY Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/445703p-375171c.html) feels free to mock him and call him “creep” while also appearing to opine that he didn’t do it. Karr allegedly claimed in an e-mail in 2001 that he hid under a bed. Apparently, there was a non-public conjecture that [the murderer hid under a bed.](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4935078,00.html) However, some disclosures of this hypothesis were made very public at about the same time, and may have been floated earlier in a way that an obsessed person might have located. In addition, according to the article, he also claimed to have been at the Ramsey’s Christmas party and then enticed JBR downstairs; however, their Christmas party was on 12/23 (and, as noted above, his family claims he was with them across the country on 21/24). In addition, he claimed he was in Boulder, and (implied) at the Ramseys’, because his brothger worked for John Ramsey. However, there doesn’t seem to be evidence of this. Here’s a pdf of his [yearbook inscription.](http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/pdf/karrYearbook.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/319 "2006-08-22T11:07:44Z")
[QUOTE=furlibusea] I am sorry but this is stupid. Yah, they dress the kids up, but really it seems more playing dolls than sexual. I don’t think there is anyone who has a little girl that hasn’t played doll with them at some point or another. [/QUOTE] I never tried to dress my GI Joe to look like a male hustler like I’ve seen some of these mothers do (well, I guess it could be argued that GI Joe _comes_ dressed like a male hustler, but let’s not go there), and my sisters never dressed their dolls up in highly-charged sexually provocative clothing and poses, but I guess _you_ did. I repeat, do you honestly think that little kids who dress up as sexual objects are at absolutely zero additional risk for predation as kids who don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008/320 "2006-08-22T11:10:08Z")
I dressed my Barbie up like a hooker. I also had her flash Ken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrest-made-in-jonbenet-ramsey-case/369008.md?page=17)