# Arrested for overdue library book **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 2, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907 "2013-11-02T03:57:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/41 "2013-11-02T21:37:04Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Ok, fair enough. I personally think it’s stupid to arrest someone over a $15 or $20 fine. You may think that but it actually happens all the time, for various reasons. As has been mentioned repeatedly, the police stopped the guy for a traffic violation, noted the warrant and took him in. That happens for a LOT of things - basically, any fine you owe the government that you ignore will eventually work its way into a warrant, nowadays. They just wait for you to fall into their web somehow, then cart you off. Back when I was managing a pizza joint, we accepted checks. If we got a bad check, we’d try contacting the person 5 times, then report them for writing a bad check - their next traffic stop they’d be arrested. Pretty much everyone that showed up squawked about what we put them thru for a lousy $20 pizza order, but in 8 years I never had someone who received the bad check notice show up and pay before it went that far. The funny one was my brother. He got a $5 parking ticket while visiting VA and blew it off as he was just there for the day. About a year later he was arrested during a traffic stop in KY because they’re both Commonwealths or something. Worse, when he went before the judge he was asked why he didn’t simply pay the fine and leave last night? Cops “forgot” to tell him that when they brought him in. Judge dismissed his case, at least… ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/42 "2013-11-02T21:40:49Z")
Just what people need, yet another reason to NOT go to the library. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/43 "2013-11-02T21:49:31Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I don’t care if he was jaywalking, flipping off babies, and eating a panda sandwich, while using the library book as a place to store his unpaid parking tickets and ignored jury summons collection. Procrastination of returning a book to the library should not be grounds for arrest. If he walked into a restaurant, had a twenty dollar meal and then told the restaurant to go pound sand, should the guy get arrested? Or should he just get a finger wagged at him? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/44 "2013-11-02T21:57:48Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Just what people need, yet another reason to NOT go to the library. 😕 I don’t understand this comment. What reason is that? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/45 "2013-11-02T22:12:27Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > My library does not arrest people, as far as I know, but they no longer cap fines at the price of the book, making borrowing a book a dangerous proposition. > They sell off their books for no rational reason. It’s not to make money, as they go for 25 cents a bag, and it’s not because they are out of space, as the shelving units have the bottom 3 shelves completely vacant. At every library I’ve been involved with, the books sold at libraries are mostly donated for the sales, and the workers are volunteers, so it does bring in a significant chunk of money for the library. ---
**Author:** ![Chanteuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de053/32.png) [@Chanteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chanteuse)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/46 "2013-11-02T22:26:48Z")
[Overdues](http://www.freeworldu.org/text%20passages/lbPoetry2.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/47 "2013-11-02T22:30:01Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > If he walked into a restaurant, had a twenty dollar meal and then told the restaurant to go pound sand, should the guy get arrested? Or should he just get a finger wagged at him? That’s a terrible analogy. He didn’t steal from a private business; he kept a library book (one intended to be loaned out). Library materials get damaged and lost all the time. That’s the cost of lending them out to any crazy with a library card. People who abuse the system to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars should be prosecuted. Those who lose one book should lose their privileges. It’s the cost of providing a public good. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/48 "2013-11-02T22:55:16Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > That’s a terrible analogy. He didn’t steal from a private business; he kept a library book (one intended to be loaned out). That’s right, he didn’t steal from a private business, he stole from the other people in his community who support and use the public library. I don’t see how that’s better than stealing from Barnes & Noble or doing a “dine and dash” at a local restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/49 "2013-11-02T23:09:35Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > That’s right, he didn’t steal from a private business, he stole from the other people in his community who support and use the public library. I don’t see how that’s better than stealing from Barnes & Noble or doing a “dine and dash” at a local restaurant. Yes, the cost is borne by the community because we’ve decided that having liberal library policies is a public good. We could have a zero loss system–when you sign up you have to leave a security deposit or link your account to a credt card. We could have each item inspected for coffee stains or DVD scratches and fine the patrons accordingly. But we don’t. We’d prefer the library to be a low stress welcoming place. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/50 "2013-11-02T23:20:51Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > That’s a terrible analogy. He didn’t steal from a private business; he kept a library book (one intended to be loaned out). Library materials get damaged and lost all the time. That’s the cost of lending them out to any crazy with a library card. People who abuse the system to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars should be prosecuted. Those who lose one book should lose their privileges. It’s the cost of providing a public good. > [@Lamia](#): > > That’s right, he didn’t steal from a private business, he stole from the other people in his community who support and use the public library. I don’t see how that’s better than stealing from Barnes & Noble or doing a “dine and dash” at a local restaurant. Again, he didn’t lose it. He refused to return it. For three years. He could have been arrested after only 90 days, but they waited three years. And even then he didn’t go to prison over it. I’d be really surprised if the charges weren’t dropped after the book was returned. But it’s unlikely that will be reported. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/51 "2013-11-02T23:27:10Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Again, he didn’t lose it. He refused to return it. For three years. He could have been arrested after only 90 days, but they waited three years. And even then he didn’t go to prison over it. I’d be really surprised if the charges weren’t dropped after the book was returned. But it’s unlikely that will be reported. Your point is well taken. This guy is a poster boy for bad library behavior. However, in the real world, it’s impossible to distinguish the genuine lost book from the deliberate theft. It’s impossible to tell who swiped a book and threw it in the trash and who returned it and the book got lost in the system. With all of these uncertainties, it’s better in my opinion to err on the side of leniency. Especially when hard line policies will end up disproportionately affecting the poorest patrons. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/52 "2013-11-02T23:37:55Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > We could have each item inspected for coffee stains or DVD scratches and fine the patrons accordingly. But we don’t. Actually, _WE_ do. Books and DVDs are inspected for problems when they come back and people are charged fines if items don’t come back in lendable condition. > [@Erdosain](#): > > However, in the real world, it’s impossible to distinguish the genuine lost book from the deliberate theft. It’s impossible to tell who swiped a book and threw it in the trash and who returned it and the book got lost in the system. Nope, not impossible. There are policies in place for when patrons claim they returned an item but the computer says otherwise. It involves the same three months and a literal scouring of the shelves looking for misplaced items. It would take a Job-like string of bad luck for someone to get arrested for an overdue book if it was actually already on the shelf. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Especially when hard line policies will end up disproportionately affecting the poorest patrons. Why would poor people have a harder time bringing a book back to the library than a middle class (or, let’s get crazy, a rich) person? If you’re not late with your stuff you’re not going to get hit with fines. It really is that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/53 "2013-11-03T00:06:08Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Actually, _WE_ do. Books and DVDs are inspected for problems when they come back and people are charged fines if items don’t come back in lendable condition. Well, I’d be interested in knowing how effective these inspections are. I’ve borrowed books in extremely poor condition and CDs that wouldn’t stop skipping. No one flagged them before they got to me and no one said boo after I returned them in the same condition I found them. I assume these are pretty cursory inspections–if it doesn’t stick to the librarian’s hand while they’re checking it in, it’s good. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Nope, not impossible. There are policies in place for when patrons claim they returned an item but the computer says otherwise. It involves the same three months and a literal scouring of the shelves looking for misplaced items. It would take a Job-like string of bad luck for someone to get arrested for an overdue book if it was actually already on the shelf. Just speaking from personal experience, on two occasions I’ve had returned books failed to be checked back in before being reshelved. In both cases I went and pulled the books from the shelves myself because I didn’t trust the employee (often just a part time helper) to be as familiar with what the books looked like or be as motivated to find them. And yes, one book was mis-shelved and probably would have been missed by the student (this was a university library). > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Why would poor people have a harder time bringing a book back to the library than a middle class (or, let’s get crazy, a rich) person? If you’re not late with your stuff you’re not going to get hit with fines. It really is that simple. Poor people often don’t have as much leisure time to go to the library. If they lose a book or their kid loses a couple of DVDs, it’s completely possible that they won’t have the resources to cut a check and be done with it, like a middle class family would. Do you really think a doctor or a lawyer is going to get arrested for losing an Eckhard Tolle book, or will it be the guy checking out the GED prep book? ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/54 "2013-11-03T00:24:39Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > With all of these uncertainties, it’s better in my opinion to err on the side of leniency. Especially when hard line policies will end up disproportionately affecting the poorest patrons. He went 3 years with no repercussions during which he could have returned the book, after which he was taken into custody for a few hours. Pretty lenient as it is. He wasn’t taken to a gulag! ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/55 "2013-11-03T00:33:17Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Libraries often must remove materials for reasons that non-librarians wouldn’t agree with, but which are nevertheless quite rational. I assume from your description that this is a public library. A public library cannot afford to be an archive. If materials are not being used, they will be discarded. If those materials that need to be discarded might still be of interest or use to someone, they’ll be saved from the recycling bin by being sent to a book sale. > > Library privacy laws\* aren’t dumb. They’re there to protect, among others, battered spouses, people being stalked, people in acrimonious divorces, and identity theft victims. > > \*I saw _laws_ because in the two states I’ve lived in, they are, in fact, state laws and are treated very seriously by library administration. Breaking those laws can result in losing your job, losing your certification (i.e., never working as a public librarian in that state again), and jail. They are selling off books for pennies and leaving empty shelves. What are these secret librarian reasons that don’t involve running out of storage space? And describe ANY possible scenario where me paying someone’s library fine results in harm? For this purpose, please assume me to be a child-raping serial killing terrorist. How do I manage to further my dastardly deeds via giving my $90 to the library? Bear in mind, I was not asking for any information. I just wanted to pay the money that was owed, since my mother was too embarrassed to go and I wanted her to be able to continue to enjoy the library in spite of her irresponsibly late book returning. She was a dear woman, but quite scatterbrained, due to some health issues. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/56 "2013-11-03T00:37:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The library isn’t arresting anyone. The police arrested Enck for violating a city ordinance. According to the article, this ordinance was passed because it was costing the local library “a tremendous amount of money” to replace stolen materials. Cutting funding to the library would only make it _more_ important for them to recover these stolen items. I don’t pay bullies. The library is supposed to be a positive friendly place. If it fails at this, it can close its doors forever for all I care. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/57 "2013-11-03T00:41:51Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > He went 3 years with no repercussions during which he could have returned the book, after which he was taken into custody for a few hours. Pretty lenient as it is. He wasn’t taken to a gulag! I think we’ll have agree to disagree about whether being arrested for a library book is pretty lenient. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/58 "2013-11-03T00:56:55Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Yes, the cost is borne by the community because we’ve decided that having liberal library policies is a public good. Copperas Cove decided that the public would be better served by not having library policies so lenient that the library was forced to spend large amounts of money replacing stolen materials. > [@](#): > > We’d prefer the library to be a low stress welcoming place. A library is a less stressful, more welcoming, and more useful place for the majority of patrons when it’s not a regular target for thieves. In the past three years I’ll bet there were a lot of people hoping to pass the GED who couldn’t easily afford to buy their own study guides. Do you think maybe it was a little stressful for them to go to the library and find that the book they needed had been stolen? > [@AnaMen](#): > > I don’t pay bullies. The library is supposed to be a positive friendly place. If it fails at this, it can close its doors forever for all I care. If you’re ever the victim of a theft, I hope someone will be there to remind you that it’s bullying to report a crime to the police. You’re supposed to be positive and friendly, which means letting others do whatever they want to you without fear of repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/59 "2013-11-03T01:05:39Z")
Well, we’re kind of arguing in the dark here when we don’t know anything about how much the Copperas Cove library system is losing to theft or even how many copies they own of the GED study guide. It could be the system is near bankruptcy because every book is spirited out the doors immediately. Or it could be a case where the city council is full of jerks. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907/60 "2013-11-03T01:08:49Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If you’re ever the victim of a theft, I hope someone will be there to remind you that it’s bullying to report a crime to the police. You’re supposed to be positive and friendly, which means letting others do whatever they want to you without fear of repercussions. A small fine for each day a book is late and not allowing the patron to check out more books until it is paid is sufficient discouragement. Being positive and friendly (I’m not a library, do not exist on public funding, and do not claim that my existence is for the good of society, so do not have the same obligations as a library) does not mean being a doormat. I’ve had things stolen and learned long ago not to waste my time with calling the police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arrested-for-overdue-library-book/672907.md?page=4)