Around here, it goes to the replacement value of the book, and then you’ve essentially bought the book, and it even says right on the website that at this point, it’s yours and you can keep it. That seems like a much more sensible policy to me, although I suppose it can be subject to abuse if people start treating the library as a bookstore.
The man wasn’t arrested because he kept a library book too long although that is narrow-minded conclusion that some people keep focusing on. He was arrested because he had an outstanding warrant out when he was stopped for another violation. It is true that this particular warrant was because he repeatedly ignored notices to pay a government fine but that is just a circumstantial detail.
As pointed out above, not paying a government fine and repeatedly ignoring the notices to pay it will eventually end up as a warrant no matter how petty the offense seems on the outside. You could potentially get one letting your grass grow too log and ignore the ticket notices for it long enough or it could be the end result of ignoring a jaywalking ticket. The actual offense and the severity does not matter. All government violations are backed up with the ultimate threat of police and firepower if you do not comply long enough. That isn’t a criticism of the legal system or the police. It has to be that way or they don’t have any true power.
What if he resisted arrest on was shot and killed in a violent struggle with the police? Would you then claim that ‘A man was shot by the police over an overdue library book’? I am certain some people would but it would not be true except in the most indirect and deceptive way. The same thing applies here although he eventually complied as wasn’t shot and killed so we can view this as a happy ending.
I’ve known a person who was arrested for not paying a $20 parking ticket. Is that any more or less justified then not returning a $20 library book?
It is exactly the same. I am sure the person also had chances to pay the parking ticket and didn’t for whatever reason. You can’t just ignore such things and actually expect the government to just forget about it because it isn’t that serious of an offense. It doesn’t work that way. The escalation procedure is usually slow but you will eventually find yourself in handcuffs placed there by people with deadly firearms backing them up if you want to resist even further. It doesn’t matter what the offense is. There has to be eventual consequences that involve force, detainment and possibly even death if the earlier efforts at addressing the issue are unsuccessful or they would have no power at all.
This has nothing to do with a library book at least directly. It is just about the general principle of ignoring a government fine, summons or whatever else long enough to earn a warrant for arrest. You hear the same protests when somebody decides to battle it out with the police while being arrested for something like shoplifting. Some people shriek, "A Man/boy/woman was killed over a pack of cigarettes’. No, they were shot because they were resisting arrest forcefully enough to justify lethal force (usually). It doesn’t matter what started the sequence of events. Legal and police procedures are backed up by escalation procedures if the earlier ones do not work and they go all the way up to the ultimate ones no matter how petty the original offense is.
Well, yeah. That’s how I understood it. I don’t see how it really matters. Putting a warrant out on somebody over an overdue library book seems excessive to me. I guess I’m just glad my jurisdiction doesn’t have such procedures, as I would potentially have been arrested for it, even though I did nothing to purposely avoid paying the fines. I left the country, absentmindedly forgot about the book, never got any mail about returning the book so far as I know, and gave the books back when I came back and realized them in my possession. For all I know, they could have made “collection attempts” and put a warrant out for my arrest over what, to me, was an innocent oversight. I think it’s an overly harsh punishment for the crime, but many here apparently disagree. So what else is there to say?
Agreed for the most part but I can see the argument that it is similar to shoplifting. I am a moderate libertarian and this general type of thing is why we like to limit government as much as possible although we do believe in strong government where it belongs despite some popular beliefs.
However, I know that any true government powers have to be backed up by threats of force otherwise they are useless. There is no point in the escalation flowchart where the authorities can say, just forget about it, it wasn’t that bad. The escalation procedure always ends up with the threat of physical detention or death if you don’t comply no matter how minor the infraction is.
I personally wouldn’t make library fines a civil infraction that can end up in a warrant for arrest like it was here but it was in their community so the ultimate result has to be the same if you don’t comply. There is nothing special about this case. Try ignoring the most mundane civil infraction in your own community for a few years and it will end up the same way. It has to because there is no other way to handle it without the government just admitting they don’t have any power otherwise.
By your logic, if the guy didn’t eventually come up with the book or money to pay for it, it would be okay for the state to kill him?!?
For me, it’s enough that the punishment be you’re never allowed to borrow a book from the public library again until you’ve paid up your fines and/or returned overdue materials. For me, that seems like a sensible consequence of not returning a book, not putting a warrant out on you. That’s certainly been enough to get me down to the library to return those 5- or 6-year overdue books and straighten things out and ask if there are any other materials I have outstanding that I’ve forgotten about. YMMV.
It is about the book. The reason speeding can get you put in jail is that it puts people in danger. The reason someone gets killed over resisting arrest is that the cops are in danger. That’s the sole moral justification for these things.
A library book not being given back does not put anyone in danger, hence why most places do not get the police even involved. The fact that this community does just means that this community is made up of a bunch of people who put getting library books back more important than the personal freedom of someone who didn’t give it back. Something doesn’t become right because a majority group of people in a particular location think it’s right.
If the majority of the country thought this was either moral or at least an acceptable deviation, this wouldn’t be news. There just is no reason they couldn’t have gotten the money from collections and let them deal with it. Not paying your bill is not treated the same way as criminal offenses in this country. That’s why we have bankruptcy instead of debtors’ prison.
The sole exception I can think of is for hot checks, and that only happens after multiple infractions with clear intent to defraud. At that point, the person is likely compromising the livelihood of the people involved. A $20 book that they went without for 3 years without replacing it is not causing such a problem.
BTW, the library is not a part of the government. It is a local non-profit partially subsidized by the government (and partially donations.) So even the idea that the government has to enforce its fines doesn’t apply. This should not be treated any differently than not paying your bill in any other private enterprise.
No, don’t make dumb arguments although the real outcome to your proposed set of events may seem equally stupid to some. He was arrested on a warrant based on a routine traffic stop. There is nothing special about that. It happens all the time for things that are equally mundane. He or someone he knows has to post bail or provide compensation to the violated party before he can be let out of jail (in this case, it is the library).
Again, this the eventual result of the escalation procedures that have to happen if you don’t comply for long enough. This particular jurisdiction decided that they will issue arrest warrants for people that do not return library books despite repeated notices and that is minor infraction just like many others but it has to go up to the full threat of force otherwise there is no power at all. People could just ignore it just like they could refuse to pull over during a routine traffic stop and that could also end up in death despite the original offense. That doesn’t work, The threat and reality of extreme escalation is always there for government procedures all the way to the end.
Nobody is going to be shot and killed for civil infractions unless there is a completely separate felony of violently resisting arrest. You do have to go to jail no matter how briefly however because you didn’t listen the first 5 times or so you were warned.
My point is that there is no point that the government (state, local or federal) will routinely just give up just because you protest that the charge isn’t fair or proportional to the offense. The original offense has nothing to do with the matter. All the police see is that you have a warrant out for your arrest and have to detain you (through violent force if necessary) and bring you in front of a judge.
You can earn a warrant for your arrest through serial killing or through the most mundane civil infractions you can imagine. It doesn’t matter. The end result is going to be the same. The Enforcers (Police) have to arrest you and take into detention and put you in front of a judge.
I partially agree with you but I don’t think it applies in this case. I personally wouldn’t make overdue library books a civil infraction but the people in this jurisdiction did for whatever reason so it should be treated like any other. There are plenty of others that do not place anyone else in danger that would be treated the same way.
Government powers always have to be backed up with the ultimate threat of detention, wage garnishment or lethal force force once they are instituted. It sounds harsh and it is but that is the reality of why it can work at all. Wage garnishment might have been a better solution in this case but I doubt they had the tools in place to institute it over a library book. It would have cost more and arrest is much easier. It even worked out quite well so I am not sure why anyone is complaining about it. The person in question obviously did wrong and it was corrected quite effectively. I doubt he ever does that again.
BTW, most libraries I am familiar with are government entities and I live in the town that has the first in the nation established by Ben Franklin himself. I don’t think we can be arrested for overdue library books here but we most certainly can for ignoring really mundane civil infractions that are even less serious than that if we let them go on long enough and the chances are outstanding that you can too where you live. That is just the way it works. The escalation procedures go up to the most severe even for the most minor infractions if you refuse to cooperate long enough. It has to work that way.
You really think it’s wrong to get the police involved in incidents of shoplifting (or anything else where no one is in danger)?
What’s amusing is that all the kinder and gentler means that were tried didn’t work on this asshole until the thing turned legal. The reason it didn’t (repeated attempts to get it returned, fines, collection agency, whatnot) is because he didn’t care about any of that stuff. It only took the police getting involved for him to realize that he really did. Which I think is hilarious.
Ninety-three posts and no one’s mentioned Mr Bookman on Seinfeld? (“The Libraray” is one of the few episodes of the show I’ve seen.)
The wife and I belong to the private Neilson Hays Library in Bangkok. A guy I knew gave me a copy of John Updike’s Rabbit, Run and told me he had borrowed it from a mutual friend who used to be a member of that library, had borrowed the book from there himself and just kept it after his membership lapsed. (Individual membership is about US$80 a year, and he didn’t want to pay that anymore.) Told me to slip it back to the library when I was finished with it, which I did. The mutual friend was fit to be tied when he learned of this. I just don’t understand people who steal library books.
At some point, when you’re trying to make someone do something trivial, YOU become the asshole and any lesson is lost.
Letting some guy get away with one used book is better than living in a police state where no infraction is too small to pursue with the biggest guns necessary and forced obedience and compliance take precedence over the common good.
It was used in the Seinfeld episode because the idea of “library police” was ridiculous and absurd. Now we actually live in that unfunny joke of a world.
Years ago I called the police on my college roommate over his failure to return library books.
He had removed several books, including at least one illuminated manuscript that was several hundred years old, from the rare book collection at one of the campus libraries. None were checked out.
I viewed his actions as theft, plain and simple. His employer agreed - he lost his job at the library as a result.
Post 11.
What are you babbling about? There is no police state. This guy was pulled over for a separate crime and when the cop ran his license he came up with the theft warrant of a library book. The SWAT team didn’t break down his door and there was no “library cop” on his trail all these years. Speaking of which…
Bookman may have styled himself a “library cop,” but the ridiculous and absurd joke was that he took his self-imposed title so seriously. Bookman was a collection agent, nothing more or less. They were common in library work then and they’re even more common today.
Damn. How’d I miss that?
Anyway, I remembered another incident, this time from Albuquerque. A friend of mine was taking some electrical-engineering courses from a vocational school there. He was also an avid amateur photographer and had checked out a bunch of books on photography from the school library. He blew off the due dates, thinking he’d just turn them in whenever and pay whatever late fines applied. How much could they be? Well, they eventually came to several hundred dollars, as I recall. Maybe about $500. He was essentially expelled from the school, as he was barred from signing up for subsequent semesters until he settled that bill, which he declared he had no intention of doing. Don’t know if he ever returned the books, as I left Albuquerque not too long after that and lost touch with him.
Having worked in the campus library in my undergraduate university in Texas, I just can’t fathom this sort of behavior. What makes it stranger still is this guy had also been a student librarian alongside me. And he later worked for a few years as a librarian in the Albuquerque system! Unbelievable.
I didn’t say there is currently a police state or that anyone broke a door or is a library cop. The guy was arrested for not returning a library book. The warrant was issued because he did not return a library book. The warrant was executed during some other kind of stop. There is no reason to believe he perpetrated any other crime, as the policy is to check for warrants during a “routine stop.” It is routine to stop people and run their licenses, just as you might expect from a police state.