# Arson? at the Westboro Baptist Church **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 3, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667 "2008-08-03T03:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/1 "2008-08-03T03:22:17Z")
The following link is to a local TV story about a possible case of arson at the Westboro Baptist Church. [http://www.ksnt.com/news/local/26210264.html](http://www.ksnt.com/news/local/26210264.html) It could be vandals, it sure could, but I’m so jaded by how often they claim to have been attacked. I’m not saying some of their stories about attacks aren’t true, but they never like to talk about how THEY have attacked people. Like the minister of the church I once attended. And now their elderly neighbhor is talking about how they act towards her. Hmmm. The block where the WBC compound is located has, I think, two properties that don’t belong to the WBC. They have a tall privacy fence that connects all their own houses, and the church house, but it has to jink around the houses that aren’t theirs. It’s rather funny, but I’ve often wondered what it’s like to live cheek by jowl with the Phelps family. Their own houses look so plain, but the one neighbor who lives along 12th street has an elaborately landscaped lawn. I’d love to have that house, maybe paint it in rainbow colors. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/2 "2008-08-03T03:26:09Z")
I’d be careful insinuating that the Phelps faked an attack- they have no previous record of doing so, do they? I’m tempted to assume that the local vandals probably have more integrity than the Phelps clan, just out of Phelps-hating habit, which is really unfair. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/3 "2008-08-03T04:14:20Z")
They’re about to lose the church, too. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/4 "2008-08-03T04:19:19Z")
Insurance claim? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/5 "2008-08-03T04:28:43Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] They’re about to lose the church, too. [/QUOTE] From your mouth to God’s ear, as the saying goes. The WBC picketed at my church last Sunday. They hadn’t been there in a while, so it was great to see them again. I take it as a testimony that the congregation I belong to must be doing something right, if Phred and Co. act as “greeters”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/6 "2008-08-03T06:25:04Z")
[del]GOOD[/del] I hope nobody was seriously hurt. _eyetwitch_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/7 "2008-08-03T06:55:09Z")
If it was really arson, and not something done by the family itself, then the act needs to condemned as much as any other act of arson. Setting a fire is an extremely dangerous and unpredictable way to get back at somebody. You don’t know how it could spread or who it could hurt. I know I would want somebody setting fire to the house next to mine, no matter how much of an asshole the resident was. Eggs and toilet paper would have sufficed. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/8 "2008-08-03T10:58:09Z")
[QUOTE=WarmNPrickly] Insurance claim? [/QUOTE] Civil judgment. [Father wins millions from war funeral pickets](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/): > [@](#): > > BALTIMORE - A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict against a fundamentalist church that pickets military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for America’s tolerance of homosexuality. > > Albert Snyder sued the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members demonstrated at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq. > > The federal jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/9 "2008-08-03T11:42:48Z")
Right. I would not be surprised if they cut off their noses to spite their face in this issue, damaging the about to be confiscated items. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/10 "2008-08-03T12:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] Civil judgment. [Father wins millions from war funeral pickets](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/): [/QUOTE] Is there any timetable for when the Phelpses actually have to vacate the church? They’ve been “about to lose” it for going on a year now. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/11 "2008-08-03T12:48:53Z")
[Thank God for the Westboro Fire](http://www.signmovies.net/videos/news/2008/20080802thankgodforwbcfire.html). They said it, and I am in total, complete and utter agreement. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/12 "2008-08-03T13:02:22Z")
I suspect that this was a real arson or attack. And like **Diogenes** says, that’s a terrible way to express displeasure with anyone. Even Phred. I’ve heard some of the stories about the Phelps clan’s pattern of going to the edge of legal behavior, and then suing should anyone retaliate. (IIRC **Baker** ’s story about her former pastor was one such incident.) Based on some of the other crazy stuff they’ve done, I’d normally consider them to be candidates for setting their own complex on fire, esp. to prevent paying out a civil judgment. But they’ve been exceedingly careful to avoid out-and-out breaking laws. And especially careful of leaving evidence behind. It is a serious technical challenge to start a conflagration in such a manner that it won’t leave clear evidence of arson behind. AIUI arson is one of those crimes that the property owner cannot say, “I won’t press charges,” to stop an investigation, nor a criminal prosecution. Given the number of lawyers in the Phelps clan, I’d think that they’d be aware that buring their own complex down would be a very high risk proposition, not simply at the time - but in the aftermath, as well. Now, I may well be over-generous towards them, in assuming they’ve thought things through, but they do have a history of sticking just to the right side of the letter of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/13 "2008-08-03T13:12:58Z")
As much as I hate to admit it, **OtakuLoki** has a point. I’ve been watching these folks for fifteen years now, since the picketing started, and I’ve been wrong before. When they started picketing it was a drive to “clean up Gage Park”, where allegedly there was gay sexual activity going on. They swore they’d keep on until their “goal” was met. I figured they’d quit after a year or so, when picketing became old news. But the WBC expanded it’s “vision” and has kept on. According to past statements Fred himself doesn’t believe a woman can be a clergyperson, or leader of a group. So I figured when he passes on the group would dissolve. Now I’m not so sure about that either, since some of his daughters have become the primary speakers for the clan. I guess it’s some fault in me that automatically makes me suspicious of them. And that statement by the elderly neighbor raised my hackles too, about how they keep nagging her to sell out to them. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/14 "2008-08-03T13:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Now, I may well be over-generous towards them, in assuming they’ve thought things through, but they do have a history of sticking just to the right side of the letter of the law. [/QUOTE] You’re not being over-generous. As far as I can see, these guys think _everything_ through, which is why they’ve been damned hard to combat over the past couple of decades. In the WBC, you have a group of highly intelligent, highly trained, and highly experienced nutjobs who know _exactly_ where the legal borders lie, and what they can and cannot do to fulfill their nutjob desires on the community. Phred himself has courtroom time successfully fighting Jim Crowe laws, a course of action which placed him and his family in physical danger. These people are battle-hardened and combat-tested, and they’ve survived purely by their wits and their solidarity. It’s cathartic and entertaining to poke fun at them, sure, but underneath it all, they are enemies to be feared and respected. They have earned it, too. People who don’t fear and respect them are fooling themselves. When I’m feeling optimistic, I think to myself that the WBC is just a flash in the pan, a one-hit wonder. When they’re gone, the problem will be gone. But more and more, I find myself thinking that these whackjobs actually represent the next evolutionary stage for hate groups. I find myself imagining groups of white supremacists with the WBC’s resources and smarts. It’s not so hard to imagine. William Pierce held a PhD. in physics. Crazy and stupid are two very different things. Look at what Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri did with terrorism in the Middle East. They took a bunch of ragtags and turned them into Al-Qaeda, and reading everything I could find on Al-Qaeda has done a lot toward destroying my peace of mind. Like Al-Qaeda, the WBC consists of a bunch of people who think about combatting us a lot more than we think about combatting them, and they know how to get our attention. Hate groups and terrorist organizations evolve right alongside governments and species. I hope that the WBC isn’t an illustration of that, but I’m beginning to suspect it might be. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/15 "2008-08-03T13:40:49Z")
[QUOTE=Baker] According to past statements Fred himself doesn’t believe a woman can be a clergyperson, or leader of a group. So I figured when he passes on the group would dissolve. Now I’m not so sure about that either, since some of his daughters have become the primary speakers for the clan. [/QUOTE] You know, I’m not worried too much about this. The WBC is dedicated, sure, but I believe that once Fred is gone, the core of the group will die too. In fact, if you watch the BBC documentary **The Most Hated Family in America** , they show signs of cracking under the pressure. I remember a guy talking to a male church member who said something along the lines of “Fred had a relatively normal upbringing. He’s soft. We’ve grown up in this environment, and when he’s gone, we’re going to take it to the next level,” and the look in his eyes was scary. I started humming along the lines of “He’s got Shirley Roper eye-e-e-es.” OK, back to the point. I saw that, and I thought, “Well, that’s good news and bad. It’s good news, because this guy seems to be saying that sooner or later they’re going to go too far and they’ll all wind up in prison. It’s bad news for the poor bastard who pushes them into beating him or her to death, though.” And so what if they put Shirley Phelps-Roper in charge? Smart, yes. Sane, no. I don’t think she has what it takes to keep the church together, particularly since it calls itself a primitive Baptist church with very specific views on a woman running things. It’ll cause a schism among the male church members. Sooner or later, she’ll crack. The WBC is tough, but it’s not what keeps me up at night. I’m more concerned with the long-term effects on other hate groups. Oh, by the way, the last time I checked, you can see the BBC doc. on Youtube. Worth a watch, if you’re interested in the WBC. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/16 "2008-08-03T14:14:10Z")
Anyone figure that God set the fire? ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/17 "2008-08-03T14:26:11Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If it was really arson, and not something done by the family itself, then the act needs to condemned as much as any other act of arson. Setting a fire is an extremely dangerous and unpredictable way to get back at somebody. You don’t know how it could spread or who it could hurt. I know I **would** want somebody setting fire to the house next to mine, no matter how much of an asshole the resident was. Eggs and toilet paper would have sufficed. [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. I believe you wished to say _wouldn’t_. 😉 Being in Phred’s financial position, attempted arson is profoundly stupid, as the act would attract intense scrutiny by local and state fire investigation personnel, as well as those of the insurer. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/18 "2008-08-03T14:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=danceswithcats] Being in Phred’s financial position, attempted arson is profoundly stupid, as the act would attract intense scrutiny by local and state fire investigation personnel, as well as those of the insurer. [/QUOTE] I would think that only applies to someone who is trying to hide the fact that it was arson. The arson here is obvious. What will be hard to discover is whether the Phelps’ set the fire or if it was an outside attack. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/19 "2008-08-03T15:10:43Z")
The fire started near the exterior of their garage, and spread to it, causing about $10,000 damage to the structure and no loss of contents. That’s not the sort of thing one would expect in an insurance fire, and even if it were, the amount would be insignificant relative to what the nuts need. Looks like they took advantage of the publicity during the fire: [http://cjonline.com/stories/080308/loc\_312960452.shtml](http://cjonline.com/stories/080308/loc_312960452.shtml) “Firefighters removed several of the Phelpses’ anti-homosexual picketing signs from the garage as family members and neighbors watched.” “Shortly afterward, family members began filming footage of the fire, taking photographs and documenting what occurred. Several carried signs as they watched.” ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arson-at-the-westboro-baptist-church/458667/20 "2008-08-03T19:59:38Z")
I see Muffin beat me to posting a link to the article in today’s Capital-Journal. As to how the fire started, I found the following quote from the article interesting: _Topeka fire marshal Greg Bailey said Saturday afternoon the cause of the fire hadn’t been determined. Bailey said it didn’t appear that accelerants were used to ignite the fire, but that the blaze remained under investigation._ If those trash cans were outside the privacy fence, there may be another possibility. The contents of the trash cans were not detailed, because hey, it’s trash. But might it be spontaneous combustion? If, say, there were a lot of grass clippings in there(and they do have a lot of lawn in their compound)might the contents have got really hot and the fire started accidentally? Of course the Phelps \*want \* to believe in arson, but the lack, so far, of the evidence of accelerants makes it sound like it could indeed be an accident. Maybe the paper will have a followup on this, in a few days.