# Art and homosexuality: If Michelango was straight... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461 "2003-10-20T04:27:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![escapol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90ced4/32.png) [@escapol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/escapol)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/1 "2003-10-20T04:27:53Z")
would he have painted the Sistine Chapel? The thread about genetics and ‘weeding out’ homosexuality in the future got me thinking. Does being gay make one more open to explore artisic endeavors? Or does being open and free (as artists usually are) lead one to be more sexually open? If being gay did disappear or diminish in the future because of genetics, would art (in all forms) deteriorate? ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/2 "2003-10-20T04:52:00Z")
Sounds like a correlation vs. causation argument to me - that is, if you can even demonstrate that gay people are more apt towards artistic expression. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/3 "2003-10-20T05:10:29Z")
Michelangelo was gay? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/4 "2003-10-20T08:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Michelangelo was gay? \*\* I always thought he was the fruitiest of the Ninja Turtles. ---
**Author:** ![Kegg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Kegg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kegg)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/5 "2003-10-20T09:20:55Z")
Not if you listen to Cahrleton (sp) Heston. * * * Spelling and grammer subject to change without notice. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/6 "2003-10-20T10:47:49Z")
In the absence of any evidence one way or the other, it would have been 19 times more valid to have titled this thread:- **Art and heterosexuality: If Michelangelo was gay…** ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/7 "2003-10-20T11:29:36Z")
Well how do you explain more gays in the artist’s “community” ? I do have my doubts about wether they seek the more open environment or if it liberalizes them. Probably the first… the arts is one of the few places its “normal” to be gayish. For some reason its more acceptable to society. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/8 "2003-10-20T11:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _from Rashak Mani_ > Well how do you explain more gays in the artist’s “community” ? If the topic is Michelangelo we’re talking about a culture of 500 years ago, are we not? The whole way of life of all people in the cultures of that time was too different to the life style of the late 20th and early 21st Centuries. Most of the population were hard pressed trying to make a living, most of them unsuccessfully, by which I mean dying. No valid comparison can possibly be made with today’s way of life, nor can any valid assumptions be made for that period. Shaky generalisations are about the best we can do, but even those should be treated with caution. As to Michelangelo’s sexual orientation, no one knows. I don’t treat speculations as fact. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/9 "2003-10-20T11:56:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alan Owes Bess \* > \*\*In the absence of any evidence one way or the other, \*\* How about [this guy…](http://artchive.floridaimaging.com/m/michelangelo/dying_slave_louvre.jpg) or even [this woman](http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/m/michelan/1sculptu/medici/1giulia4.jpg), for whom, in all likeliness, he used a male model. (Come on, those have _got_ to be fake!) As [this author](http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/michela.htm) writes: > [@](#): > > Michelangelo was probably anti-feminist; certainly he was sexist, and he believed wholeheartedly in male superiority. In one sonnet he declares that the highest form of love cannot be for a woman, because a woman “is not worthy of a wise and virile heart.”. His contemporary biographer, Condivi, said that Michelangelo often spoke exclusively of masculine love. In all of his correspondence, he never hinted, even obliquely, at marrying. > > (snip) > > Michelangelo had a reputation for homosexuality among his contemporaries. In a letter to Niccolo Quaratesi he humourously recalls how a father described his son to him in the hopes of the boy becoming the artist’s apprentice: “Once you saw him, you’d chase him into bed the minute you got home!” Sure, in the absence of Mich leaving a coming-out-of-the-closet epistle we don’t know for sure. But the evidence we _do_ have: his art, his letters, testimonies and attacks by his contemporaries, leans strongly towards the gayer side of the force. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/10 "2003-10-20T12:17:49Z")
Describing a 15th century figure as “anti-feminist” makes about as much sense as describing Augustus Ceasar as a neo-conservative. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/11 "2003-10-20T12:21:52Z")
I agree that the author’s choice of words was quite poor. The point is, however, that even for his time and culture, he seemed to _especially_ dislike women. To the point of using male models for female sculptures. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/12 "2003-10-20T12:27:43Z")
Homosexuality was in vogue in Renaissance Italy. Go figure. Michelangelo may indeed have been “genuinely” homosexual. Maybe he wasn’t. Does it really matter? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/13 "2003-10-20T12:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jovan \* > \*\*The point is, however, that even for his time and culture, he seemed to _especially_ dislike women. To the point of using male models for female sculptures. \*\* Would your average 15th century European woman pose nude for an artist? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/14 "2003-10-20T12:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Does being gay make one more open to explore artisic endeavors? Or does being open and free (as artists usually are) lead one to be more sexually open? #2 doesn’t really seem possible unless you accept homosexuality as a choice, rather than a biological thing. That is, unless one is also ‘born’ an artist. Whether it’s true or not, **jovan** ’s cite amuses me. The thinking seems to be “Mike was gay! How do I know? He was an artist and a lifelong bachelor. Come on, didn’t he seem a little, you know…” 😉 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/15 "2003-10-20T13:04:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Homosexuality was in vogue in Renaissance Italy. Go figure. > > Michelangelo may indeed have been “genuinely” homosexual. Maybe he wasn’t. Does it really matter? \*\* On a superficial level, to some extent. Some might be interested in how artists’ lives, lifestyles, etc. are echoed in their works. On the other hand, trying to establish correlations between sexual orientation and artistic skill or whatnot is a much less interesting endeavour. On the issue of male models for female subjects, double-checking my dusty art history textbooks, I see that this was the norm in Michelangelo’s time. On the other hand, you can’t help notice the _grotesquely_ masculine character of the “night” figure. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/16 "2003-10-20T13:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > **#2 doesn’t really seem possible unless you accept homosexuality as a choice, rather than a biological thing. That is, unless one is also ‘born’ an artist.** A person who is predominantly straight could still sleep with guys in the same way someone predominantly gay could still sleep with women. Oh, and I beliebe Leonardo DaVinci got in serious trouble for sleeping with someone important’s son. I’ll need to dig out a cite today. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/17 "2003-10-20T15:02:47Z")
“The point is, however, that even for his time and culture, he seemed to especially dislike women. To the point of using male models for female sculptures.” Disliking women doesn’t make someone gay. He just disliked women. He may be gay, but I never heard it before. Also, I don’t think the arts contain a particularly higher percentage of gay people. It’s much easier to be out in those circles than say, on Wall Street, but there are plenty of gay people in other walks of life. They just don’t come out as readily. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/18 "2003-10-20T15:19:02Z")
I think it’s pretty accepted orthodoxy that Michelangelo (and Leonardo DaVinci) were gay. I think that as long as homosexuality is condemned, there will be a large overlap between gay and artistic, as has always been the case. When you come to learn that your very being is denied and condemned by your society and its rules, you must come, eventually, in order to survive, to the conclusion that your society and its rules are _wrong_. This paradigm shift is the single greatest “blessing in disguise,” as it allows you–even compels you–to question other things about your society. Thus is born many an artist, myself included. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/19 "2003-10-20T15:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s pretty accepted orthodoxy that Michelangelo (and Leonardo DaVinci) were gay. No. It isn’t. There are some scholars who believe that, but there has never been any real evidence to prove it either way. the fact was, solitary male lives and a special sense of brotherhood and male-male non sexual relations were probably stronger in those days anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461/20 "2003-10-20T15:54:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by escapol \* > **would he have painted the Sistine Chapel?** Seeing as he was being forced to by the Pope who employed him, I would be inclined to say yes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/art-and-homosexuality-if-michelango-was-straight/208461.md?page=2)