Art and Popularity

First of all, I would like to limit the definition of art, along the lines of “everything” to “everything created by humans”. This is the only limitant I could set for what is art and what is not.

On the issue of popularity vs. good or bad art, I don’t think they are necessarily related. Popularity could be considered an objective measurement. If a certain number of human beings like or buy a certain artistic expression, it could be considered popular, whereas what constitutes good and bad art is subjective, constrained by a series of different factors as noted before, ranging from educational background to culture and language. Mozart, in his time, was an extremely popular artist. He is still “popular” within certain parametres nowadays. Van Gogh was not popular in his day, he can be considered popular nowadays. Mozart’s music and Van Gogh’s paintings were both subjectively evaluated at both points in time. Nowadays, more people consider Van Gogh’s paintings to be “good” art than they did whilst he was alive, but at both points in time the judgement was entirely subjective.

I guess apples and oranges.

Sarcastic aside: Chorus, since you are the self appointed arbiter of art vs. non-art, could you give us an address so we can send you all human creations for you to label them accordingly?" /sarcastic aside.

I still disagree. If a picture of a flower is art, why not the flower itself?

That wasn’t really necessary. He’s doing the same thing everyone else in the thread is doing, yourself included. He’s just got much narrower parameters. And he’s been completely civil about it, too, despite being badly outnumbered.

I agree with you on the second point, I hesitated a lot about the sarcastic aside, and it was meant as a joke. I apologyse if I it came across too rude.

I think the flower itself is a flower. A part of nature. The flower can become art if it is part of a human creation. Both might be beautiful, but one of them is a human creation and the other one is a flower. We might be getting too far into semantics here, but:

As you can see, all the different concepts that are meant by “ar” include human interaction. The concept of a flower by itself does not.

Originally posted by Wordman
Wordman, While I understand the basis of your argument, I want to challenge the above statement. Assuming that something is popular, and its message is received in a contemporary public–isn’t it possible that those messages are changed over time? A new public may make the work popular, yet they may see something completely different than the previous audience… I am speaking more here about visual art. (I think).

A fascinating debate. We’ve discussed this question before (e.g., there was a GD thread a year or so ago in which somebody seriously asserted that nonrhyming verse is not poetry), but never with this much direct focus.

Although I agree that debating art vs. non-art is rather pointless, I’m going to ignore myself and address the question of why a urinal in a museum qualifies as art.

A urinal in a bathroom is a functional object. You walk up to it without really seeing it, you pee in it, you flush (or don’t), and walk away. If you were asked, ten minutes later, to identify which of a lineup of similar urinals was the one you pissed in, you would likely be hard-pressed to pick it out. As far as you’re concerned, the object barely registered above your threshold of recognition; you saw it just enough to pee in it, and no more.

Now take the same urinal and put it on a pedestal in a gallery. Most people will be perplexed by it, and call the artist a prankster, and the attempt at art “bad” and “empty.” It isn’t immediately obvious what the artist is saying, or why the urinal is being so displayed. Because it isn’t immediately obvious, it’s easy to dismiss.

But if you pause to really ask yourself why with your mind open, a whole universe of possibilities is revealed.

First of all, who’s to say that the form of the urinal is any more or less aesthetically pleasing than a similarly abstract form? Consider, for example, the epic shapes produced by Henry Moore. They don’t represent anything. They’re just big and solid, and their designs don’t have any more literal meaning than does the form of the urinal, removed from its function. Certainly an approximation can be derived; as I recall, Man Ray’s Fountain urinal looks vaguely like a uterus. Doesn’t mean that’s the intended meaning, or even a significant one, but the comparison can be made.

Then continue asking why one should examine the physical form of the urinal when it’s sitting on a pedestal in a museum, but not when it’s hanging on the wall of an airport restroom. Isn’t it possible to walk into that restroom and examine the form of the urinals? And the sinks, and the window, and the color of the floor tile? Isn’t it possible to find beauty in unexpected places?

And therefore, isn’t it conceivable that by placing a urinal on a pedestal, the artist is saying something important about how we interact with and perceive the world? Why shouldn’t we look for intellectual and/or aesthetic beauty outside of a museum? There’s a set of freeway connectors and overpasses on I-405 northeast of Seattle that I find utterly extraordinary, intermeshing ribbons of concrete and steel that swoop through the air with apparent disregard for their enormous mass. Why are they any less valid a creation than some other example of architecture, one that’s specifically made to be looked at and admired, like, say, the Guggenheim in Spain? Even if they were made with the purely functional intent of simply moving traffic from point A to point B, am I somehow wrong to find them fascinating and, yes, even beautiful?

Man Ray’s Fountain is not glibly asking us to regard an object as a piece of art merely because it’s in a museum. It is asking us to perceive the beauty and art around us regardless of whether it’s in a museum – and, indeed, especially if it isn’t. The artist perceives a deep truth about the way we as humans examine and label the world, and he uses a urinal to make us think about it.

How on earth is that not art?

Edward Weston made a photo of a toilet from a low angle which filled the frame. It’s a beautiful image and, most definitely art. He observed the form and brought it to peoples attention by isolating it from it’s environment. Much like Duchamp did with a urinal. (I’m sure it was Duchamp.)

Crap, you’re right, it was Duchamp. :smack:

Somehow, though, I think the Dadaists would be more amused than annoyed that I temporarily mixed them up. :wink:

If I understand the Dadaists right, they would be neither amused or annoyed, rather they’d be raccooned.

lothos: The Dictionary! My God, why didn’t anyone think of that before? We could have saved two pages worth of debate!

Okay, sarcastic aside aside, I think we’re all aware of the dictionary definition. I know I am, at least, and am mostly ignoring it.

I’m arguing that art isn’t in the object, but in the perception of the object. When you look at Duchamps Fountain, the art isn’t in the urinal, it’s in the way you perceive the urinal to have significance beyond it’s urinal-ness. Just so, you can look at a flower and perceive in it a symbolism or meaning that is not native to the flower, but is imposed on it by your viewing of it.