# Artemis program - Humans on the moon by 2024 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661 "2019-05-28T17:42:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/41 "2019-05-31T01:23:40Z")
A significant problem of a Mars mission is the so-called tyranny of the rocket equation. Unless Mars pioneers are volunteering for a one-way mission they will need to carry with them all the fuel they need to return home. The return craft and its fuel can be parked in orbit around Mars. All the fuel required for survival on Mars and the flight from the Martian surface back up to orbit must be carried down and lifted back up again. The entirety of this payload must be lifted off of earth in (I expect) several launches. I understand the rocket equation but I have no idea what the state of the art inputs are for modern day chemical rockets. Can anyone chime in? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/42 "2019-05-31T03:23:07Z")
I hate to bring this up but what if the worse happens, we send a manned trip to Mars and they end up crashing like several unmanned Mars probes have done? Billions wasted for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/43 "2019-05-31T03:36:04Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > A significant problem of a Mars mission is the so-called tyranny of the rocket equation. Unless Mars pioneers are volunteering for a one-way mission they will need to carry with them all the fuel they need to return home. > > The return craft and its fuel can be parked in orbit around Mars. All the fuel required for survival on Mars and the flight from the Martian surface back up to orbit must be carried down and lifted back up again. The entirety of this payload must be lifted off of earth in (I expect) several launches. > > I understand the rocket equation but I have no idea what the state of the art inputs are for modern day chemical rockets. Can anyone chime in? That’s not exactly true. SpaceX intends to produce methane fuel on Mars and refuel their rockets with it for the return trip. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/44 "2019-05-31T03:59:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > What exactly is the return on investment for landing humans on the moon - again? Trump gets to crow about doing something impressive that Obama didn’t. This is why the 2024 deadline is so crucial if it lands in 2025 someone else might get credit. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How much more successful would such a project be if the person making the journey was Trump? Very much so. See [post 22](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21668458&postcount=22). ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/45 "2019-05-31T06:58:34Z")
So … this administration is going to get a colony on the Moon by 2024, but it’s going to take them till 2028 to [print a new bank note](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/trump-delays-putting-harriet-tubman-on-20-bill-outrage)? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/46 "2019-05-31T12:23:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I hate to bring this up but what if the worse happens, we send a manned trip to Mars and they end up crashing like several unmanned Mars probes have done? Billions wasted for nothing. Billions wasted how exactly? Leave aside the tragedy of the crew’s death but the ship was built on Earth the fuel likely came from Earth, the destination pre-arrival setup came from Earth. All of that effort and money is in circulation on Earth. The people manning the flight control, launch systems and the crew themselves will receive money into earthly bank accounts. Now if there was an expectation that the chip would cycle back and forth then sure you’ve “lost” the ability to amortize the costs but the fact is you’ve already spent the money here on Earth. If you consider landing, and not getting there, the value in the first flight then I suppose you could say it’s a waste, but first flights are to build and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/47 "2019-05-31T14:10:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s not exactly true. SpaceX intends to produce methane fuel on Mars and refuel their rockets with it for the return trip. I think that is fanciful thinking that is a long way from being realistic in the next decade. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/48 "2019-05-31T14:47:37Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > I think that is fanciful thinking that is a long way from being realistic in the next decade. Perhaps, but it was not many years ago that people were calling the idea of landing and re-using rockets “fanciful thinking that is a long way from being realistic in the next decade” and yet here we are. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/49 "2019-05-31T17:01:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps, but it was not many years ago that people were calling the idea of landing and re-using rockets “fanciful thinking that is a long way from being realistic in the next decade” and yet here we are. I’d like a cite on that. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/50 "2019-05-31T17:30:45Z")
Um… we’ve been landing and reusing rockets since 1981. Vertical powered landing of a rocket was demonstrated in [1993](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-X). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661/51 "2019-05-31T17:34:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What exactly is the point? Been there, done that. Time for Mars. [Well](https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2010/12/08/131910930/neil-armstrong-talks-about-the-first-moon-walk) [QUOTE=CDR Apollo XI] Some question why Americans should return to the Moon. “After all,” they say “we have already been there.” I find that mystifying. It would be as if 16th century monarchs proclaimed that “we need not go to the New World, we have already been there.” Or as if President Thomas Jefferson announced in 1803 that Americans “need not go west of the Mississippi, the Lewis and Clark Expedition has already been there.” Americans have visited and examined 6 locations on Luna, varying in size from a suburban lot to a small township. That leaves more than 14 million square miles yet to explore. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artemis-program-humans-on-the-moon-by-2024/834661.md?page=2)