# Article about City of Heroes - Griefing, or PvP as it was meant to be? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232 "2009-07-07T19:02:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/81 "2009-07-10T15:32:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, not at all. I was totally serious. > I wouldn’t play EVE if I didn’t like it, and [I freakin’ love this game.](http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=3_48&page=1) Finn, I think I love you. –Z, lost a Maelstrom sticking his nose into a 10v3 on the low side because that’s the only way we could get them to undock–and then bagged two HACs in retribution after they split up to go back home. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/82 "2009-07-10T16:18:38Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Then, in a way, griefers are your quality control. I’m not saying that we should put them up on a pedestal, but they end up making the game better. Oh, god. Look, I really like you LOUNE, but I HATE this logic. This is the same logic hackers and worm-writers and virus-writers use. “Well, we’re just pointing out the flaws in their system”. In a town where no one locks their doors, do we thank the first asshole thief that makes us all aware of our vulnerability? He’s a dick and people like him are the reason why online multiplayer play is less fun. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/83 "2009-07-10T17:26:15Z")
The problem with the “griefers improve the game” argument is that they can, at best, put the game back to the same place it would be without the griefers. So it basically comes down to arguing that the game with griefers is only slightly worse than the game without them, so therefore griefers improve the game. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/84 "2009-07-10T17:31:58Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Oh, god. Look, I really like you LOUNE, but I HATE this logic. This is the same logic hackers and worm-writers and virus-writers use. “Well, we’re just pointing out the flaws in their system”. In a town where no one locks their doors, do we thank the first asshole thief that makes us all aware of our vulnerability? > > He’s a dick and people like him are the reason why online multiplayer play is less fun. Right, but it applies there as well. The virus and worm writers are dicks because they actually release the stuff to do damage. Mr. PhD is a dick because he’s releasing a paper to do some damage. The problem isn’t that the worm was written or the Teleport Foe was used, the problem is that the flaw is there in the first place. After the problem is discovered, the thing to do would be to report the flaw, and show its severity before it gets widespread. There’s not much of a difference between [this](http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-12/ff_kaminsky?currentPage=all)guy and Mr. PhD except Mr. Kaminsky took his findings to the authorities and it got “patched”. If it wasn’t Mr. PhD or Mr. Worm Writer, or Mr. Kaminsky, it would have been someone else. After that, it’s what someone does with the edge or the information that really puts someone in dickdom. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/85 "2009-07-10T17:43:34Z")
But shouldn’t that difference be more significant than you appear to credit? It seems like you’re excusing him for any bad behavior simply because the hole was there. Let me see if I can sum things up. - There’s an abusable mechanic in the game. – This is where you get off the boat. Since to you, it’s the developer’s responsibility to fix those holes, you don’t seem to care who does what with them in the meantime. - The guy abuses the mechanic instead of finding it and reporting it. – This is where, to the rest of us, he becomes another dickhead who’s effectively cheating and hurting the game for others. Not in any large-scale way, just in his own small sphere of influence. - The guy then publishes an academic paper and paints himself as a concerned citizen/martyr. – This is where he becomes a _special_ dickhead and worthy of discussion to the rest of us who aren’t so enlightened as you. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/86 "2009-07-10T17:43:50Z")
So if he just did all this but never wrote the paper he wouldn’t still be a dick? Cause I say he’s still a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/87 "2009-07-10T18:31:09Z")
[The real purpose behind Twixt?](http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=12226991&Searchpage=1&Main=12221755&Words=+Fasque&topic=&Search=true#Post12226991) > [@Fasque](#): > > Old vet PVP player comes into a PVP zone, curious about what’s inside. They are targeted at range by an opposing faction member they probably can’t see, which immediately suppresses their movement. They put phase on auto and do a little dance till the suppression wears off, then zoom away. A moment later they are in the base, and you know what I would be thinking at that moment, if it was me? > > Screw this - PVP sucks. I’m coming back in here to farm and gank the noobies, but if you think Im gonna stand there and slug it out with little to no chance of fleeing insurmountable odds, you must be dinko. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/88 "2009-07-10T18:32:51Z")
The problem, as I understand it, is that this guy didn’t gain any advantage or reward for his tactics. All it did was penalize the victim. Imagine you were playing a pickup game of basketball. Now let’s say one guy on the other team decides he’s going to be an annoying dickhead. He decides that every time he gets the ball, he’s going to throw it off your leg, bouncing it out of bounds. His team would retain possession, but there’d still be no reason for his behavior, even though it’s within the rules. The object of basketball is not simply retaining possession, it’s to score points and to have fun. Wouldn’t you be annoyed with the guy and want to kick him off the court if he kept doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/89 "2009-07-10T18:37:47Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > So if he just did all this but never wrote the paper he wouldn’t still be a dick? Cause I say he’s still a dick. He’d be a dick on a much smaller scale. \*\*Bosstone \*\*has it right. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/90 "2009-07-10T19:47:10Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [The real purpose behind Twixt?](http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=12226991&Searchpage=1&Main=12221755&Words=+Fasque&topic=&Search=true#Post12226991) That was pretty much my experience with PvP zones. I’ve never been back. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/91 "2009-07-10T20:35:12Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That was pretty much my experience with PvP zones. I’ve never been back. Yeah, PVP really kinda sucks in City. The game was not designed with PVP in mind, and many iconic superpowers that define the game are pretty much nigh impossible to balance without killing the fun. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/92 "2009-07-10T22:36:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Finn, I think I love you. No applause please, just throw ISK. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/93 "2009-07-11T13:51:45Z")
Sounds like the real problem is that people want to do PvP in a really crappy PvP game with non-PvP builds. You can Max/Min for PvP or PvE, not both. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/94 "2009-07-11T14:22:14Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Yeah, PVP really kinda sucks in City. The game was not designed with PVP in mind, and many iconic superpowers that define the game are pretty much nigh impossible to balance without killing the fun. I didn’t play on PvP servers when I played WoW either. It isn’t my thing. Its one of the reasons I like City. But its also one of the reasons the article is slanted. I suspect that although CoH has its share of emotional if not physical fourteen year old boys in all zones, that the PvP zones are more highly populated with that particular flavor of jackass than the PvE zones. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/95 "2009-07-11T16:15:38Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That was pretty much my experience with PvP zones. I’ve never been back. Err, sorry, but that’s what PvP is everywhere. If you go in alone, you’re gonna get roflstomped, period. If you go in a random group of people who don’t know how you play, and you don’t know how they play, you’re gonna get roflstomped by a more coherent group AND everyone’ll say it’s your fault, too :p. One exception : stealthers, who can do the “mouahaha fear the lone wolf !” thing, but even so they won’t be very efficient on their own as opposed to in a pack (also known as “huge pain in the kiester”) 😉 As for CoH, yeah, the PvP is kinda screwy, because the PvE game is very crowd control heavy (and with the number of minions you face, it needs to be), and it’s right hard to balance so many stun/root/mez/knockdown/confuse/bounce powers against human targets who do mind behind chain paralyzed from snipe range. But even so, that’s really no excuse to be a dick and abuse the game mechanics because you don’t like how it is. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/96 "2009-07-11T16:52:13Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Sounds like the real problem is that people want to do PvP in a really crappy PvP game with non-PvP builds. You can Max/Min for PvP or PvE, not both. And that’s a gigantic barrier to entry which creates an elitist class of those people willing to put forth the effort to figure out PVP. I can take my PVE-specced WoW characters into PVP and do pretty well. Some fine-tuning would be in order if I wanted to PVP seriously, but I wouldn’t be completely useless. City, on the other hand… **Kobal2** touches on the problem. City is based around wading through hordes of enemies coming at you. The original concept was for one player to be equal to three even-level minions (the lowest rank of enemy). Since then that ratio has changed, and I have characters who would be comfortable wading into a group of 15 even-level minions and come out with barely a scratch. However, as Fezzik points out, the tactics for dealing with a crowd, especially a crowd of weaker enemies, are vastly different from the tactics for dealing with a single person, especially if that person’s your equal. PVE specs in WoW work because WoW _is_ focused on dealing with only a few enemies at a time, each of which are much more dangerous than an equivalent enemy in City. So what happens is a player tries PVP, their crowd-killer gets -wasted- because they don’t have the right setup, and they come away with a bad opinion of PVP. The developers have tried to alleviate the problem, but it’s a nasty one that I’m not sure will ever be solved without creating a new game from the ground up. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/97 "2009-07-11T20:54:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Err, sorry, but that’s what PvP is everywhere. If you go in alone, you’re gonna get roflstomped, period. If you go in a random group of people who don’t know how you play, and you don’t know how they play, you’re gonna get roflstomped by a more coherent group AND everyone’ll say it’s your fault, too :p. > > One exception : stealthers, who can do the “mouahaha fear the lone wolf !” thing, but even so they won’t be very efficient on their own as opposed to in a pack (also known as “huge pain in the kiester”) 😉 > > As for CoH, yeah, the PvP is kinda screwy, because the PvE game is very crowd control heavy (and with the number of minions you face, it needs to be), and it’s right hard to balance so many stun/root/mez/knockdown/confuse/bounce powers against human targets who do mind behind chain paralyzed from snipe range. > But even so, that’s really no excuse to be a dick and abuse the game mechanics because you don’t like how it is. Don’t apologize. I know PvP isn’t my thing which is why I don’t go in. (I did have a group - it was still a pain in the ass involving dying a lot more than I really want when I play CoH - PvE I get to choose if I want to risk engaging someone). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/98 "2009-07-11T21:00:34Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > City, on the other hand… **Kobal2** touches on the problem. City is based around wading through hordes of enemies coming at you. The original concept was for one player to be equal to three even-level minions (the lowest rank of enemy). Since then that ratio has changed, and I have characters who would be comfortable wading into a group of 15 even-level minions and come out with barely a scratch. However, as Fezzik points out, the tactics for dealing with a crowd, especially a crowd of weaker enemies, are vastly different from the tactics for dealing with a single person, especially if that person’s your equal. PVE specs in WoW work because WoW _is_ focused on dealing with only a few enemies at a time, each of which are much more dangerous than an equivalent enemy in City. > > So what happens is a player tries PVP, their crowd-killer gets -wasted- because they don’t have the right setup, and they come away with a bad opinion of PVP. The developers have tried to alleviate the problem, but it’s a nasty one that I’m not sure will ever be solved without creating a new game from the ground up. Well, yes and no. I mean, a 100% crowd stomper can certainly do some damage in PvP, however there are some pretty specific do’s and don’ts for CoH PvP, and powers you really, really can’t do without. You _need_ to cap your perception. You _need_ some kind of anti-travel power power. And you _need_ at least one continuous, single target attack chain. You can definitely get the latter even if you’re a crowd dispatcher (I used to be a Thorn/Regen scrapper, so maybe I’m biased, but as Rose’s Thorn I could pretty much destroy any one dude with a mixture of Thorn Throw, Impale and any placeholder between those two). But the anti-speed powers are pretty specific (and pretty useless PvE), and as for the +perception gear and/or powers… yeah, that’s pretty much PvP only, since no PvE mob that I know of stealthes above base perception. And of course, they take some space in your build (not to mention gear). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/99 "2009-07-11T21:02:40Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Don’t apologize. I know PvP isn’t my thing which is why I don’t go in. > > (I did have a group - it was still a pain in the ass involving dying a lot more than I really want when I play CoH - PvE I get to choose if I want to risk engaging someone). Well, TBH it’s not really my bag either. But I’ve had some high adrenaline moments in DAoC and WAR, when both sides brought crowds to the fight :). However, yes, one-on-one, or six-on-one really ain’t my cup of tea either. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232/100 "2009-07-13T04:10:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You can definitely get the latter even if you’re a crowd dispatcher (I used to be a Thorn/Regen scrapper, so maybe I’m biased, but as Rose’s Thorn I could pretty much destroy any one dude with a mixture of Thorn Throw, Impale and any placeholder between those two). But the anti-speed powers are pretty specific (and pretty useless PvE), and as for the +perception gear and/or powers… yeah, that’s pretty much PvP only, since no PvE mob that I know of stealthes above base perception. And of course, they take some space in your build (not to mention gear). I just had to relate this anecdote. Before the recent PvP changes, I was in Warburg picking up some nukes for the badge on my main, an Inv/SS tank. I will sometimes fight when in PvP, other times, I just ignore them until they manage to kill me. A plant Dom attacked me, and I didn’t feel like having a battle, so I just stopped and waited. And waited. And waited. I told the guy to hurry up, and he was sorry, it was taking him so long to kill me. I finally turned off all of my toggles to speed up the process. I don’t know what kind of build he had, but he was so lucky I didn’t fight him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-about-city-of-heroes-griefing-or-pvp-as-it-was-meant-to-be/502232.md?page=6)