# Article: Is College Education a Scam? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565 "2009-02-05T14:53:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Altair33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@Altair33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Altair33)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/1 "2009-02-05T14:53:48Z")
Thought provoking article- I went to state schools so my debt isn’t too bad, but I have some lawyer friends who went the private route and have crushing debt. > **[The Great College Hoax](https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html)** > > Higher education can be a financial disaster. Especially with the return on degrees down and student loan sharks on the prowl. Why do you guys think- is the benefit of a college education overhyped? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/2 "2009-02-05T14:58:45Z")
It is, if you assume that the only purpose of college is to have access to a better job and social network. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/3 "2009-02-05T15:09:14Z")
I’ve not read the article, but in general, college is a good investment. What’s not a good investment is to go to the most expensive prestigious school, and then not succeeding at using it’s most valuable feature, the networking. Harvard would have been wasted on me because even though I’d have graduated pretty high in my class I’d only have met 3 people in the entire time I was there, and royally pissed off two of those. The payoff on places like that come ffrom the glad-handing & the friend’s uncle who sits on the board of XYZ Corp where you’d like a fast track job. For the folks who have the skills & aptitude to make that pay off, Harvard is a much better investment than Whatsamatta U. For most ordinary schlubs, much less so. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/4 "2009-02-05T15:27:06Z")
College is ridiculously overpriced, IMO, but there’s more to college than getting a degree in hopes of landing a good job. I met some of my best friends in school and had the time of my life there. I also learned to be more responsible and overall, a better person. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/5 "2009-02-05T15:28:39Z")
I wouldn’t call college education a scam, but I don’t doubt that some lenders are predatory and some colleges are very careful about what facts they use in their recruiting literature. But what of the people who make the investments in student loans and foregone income without doing any research first? I don’t think you can reasonably say that they’re totally blameless. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/6 "2009-02-05T15:33:06Z")
> [@Altair33](#): > > Why do you guys think- is the benefit of a college education overhyped? It is insanely overhyped. Unfortunately, a lot of people who believe the hype are the ones responsible for hiring. I found my brief college experience was a complete waste, with the exception of two classes that had nothing to do with my major which gave me some really interesting perspective on things. (One was an introductory psychology class that I took as an elective because it was the only thing left; the other was a mandatory art class that I really sucked at, but at least we got to draw a naked chick.) Anyway, the truth is the vast majority of entry level jobs out there that “require” a college education actually require only some basic intelligence and literacy, but they put that requirement there since everybody seems to think they have to go to college these days. Fortunately, I was able to get work in my chosen field without the degree, and worked my way up quickly. After three years, when my friends were graduating, I was earning twice their yearly private-school tuition as my salary. So, my opinion is you should only go to college if: - You plan to go to a professional school that requires an undergrad degree (law school, medical school, business school, etc.), or - You want new experiences, lots of sex, bad beer, and cheap drugs, or - You just really want to go to college Don’t waste the time and money if you’re just going because it seems like you have to. That’s what I did, and I feel lucky that I came to my senses before making myself miserable for four years. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/7 "2009-02-05T15:45:20Z")
I have rarely used anything I learned in college in my career. And I never used it for networking or getting a job. Nonetheless, it was extremely valuable for me. It taught me _how to think_. How to organize facts into a presentation. How to persuade people of my position. How to judge ideas. How to research. Ultimately the skills you learn in college are not the information in the courses, but the skills needed in order to pass those courses. I can’t remember much about my courses about early 20th century history, but I use the skills I developed in those courses every single day. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/8 "2009-02-05T15:57:09Z")
I graduated high school with a 3.8 GPA (all academic classes by the way) but could barely write and had no concept of critical thought. College is where I actually learned how to think. (Yeah, I used to be _really_ stoopid!) I’d say it was totally worth it. Anyone who thinks they get to walk out of college and say, “OK world, here’s my degree. Gimme $60k!” is a moron. That said, if you don’t see the value in learning how to think then yeah, it’s a huge waste. ---
**Author:** ![welby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@welby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/welby)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/9 "2009-02-05T16:07:58Z")
I’m not sure, but I’m beginngin to wonder. I’m working my way through school now, while putting my son through the same college. We are both pretty dissatisfied with the majority of classes and professors. That’s not to say that I haven’t had a couple of classes where the professor really took the subject and taught it very well, challenging the students to think for themselves, etc. But on the whole, I’ve found that college was much like high shcool in my day: Memorize and regurgitate. I also wonder at some of the class assignments. For example, when did Introduction to Accounting become so difficult that it’s a 300 level class? When I took it back in the day, it was a 100 level class. I wonder if we’re dumbing down our colleges a little. State supported university, for those keeping track. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/10 "2009-02-05T16:13:08Z")
Just read the first page of the article. Thought it a tad odd that they purport to discuss college ed, and their 1st 2 examples concern law school debt. I think it unfortunate that our current job market so strongly stresses the need for a BA, as I think many young people would be better served by pursuing trades or alternative certification programs. But until things change, the majority of young people will be advantaged in their initial hires by obtaining a BA. Of course, how and where they obtain that degree is up to them. I have read several studies purporting to show that what is most important (at least down the line) is having the degree, not where it is from. So by all means, spend a couple of years at community college and then finish up at an affordable state school - or one that will allow you to commute from home, instead of incurring debt to go to a “name” private school. I know a couple of lawyers who went the private school route and are still paying off the debt. In their cases they were precluded from being accepted at decent in-state public law schools (Wisconsin and Illinois) due to bad grades and test scores. But they wanted to be lawyers, so they found small private schools that would accept them. If you asked them I think they’d still be glad they got their law degrees, but I think they would have preferred working a little harder to get better grades as undergrads, and perhaps investing in an LSAT review course. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/11 "2009-02-05T16:13:46Z")
> [@welby](#): > > I’m not sure, but I’m beginngin to wonder. I’m working my way through school now, while putting my son through the same college. We are both pretty dissatisfied with the majority of classes and professors. That’s not to say that I haven’t had a couple of classes where the professor really took the subject and taught it very well, challenging the students to think for themselves, etc. But on the whole, I’ve found that college was much like high shcool in my day: Memorize and regurgitate. > > I also wonder at some of the class assignments. For example, when did Introduction to Accounting become so difficult that it’s a 300 level class? When I took it back in the day, it was a 100 level class. I wonder if we’re dumbing down our colleges a little. > > State supported university, for those keeping track. I don’t know if it’s dumbed down… Calculus III was extremely difficult for everyone in my class (average final grade of C), yet it’s only 200-level at University of Maryland. Of course, we could’ve just had a shitty professor. I’m inclined to go that route. As for the article, I think type of degree the student pursues determines the necessity of getting one. Engineering is one of those Bachelor’s you can get where you will be doing what you learned in college. Art, History, Psychology… not so much. I only have an Associate’s, and I make more than many, many people with a 4-year degree. ---
**Author:** ![Altair33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@Altair33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Altair33)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/12 "2009-02-05T16:13:51Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > College is where I actually learned how to think. (Yeah, I used to be _really_ stoopid!) > > I’d say it was totally worth it. Anyone who thinks they get to walk out of college and say, “OK world, here’s my degree. Gimme $60k!” is a moron. I can agree with that. Plus, let’s face it- some people just don’t see themselves as blue collar workers. Those type people would feel better about themselves earning 40k behind a desk at a white collar business than they would earning 60k as a plumber. My perspective is from the law profession, and I do know that there are a lot of disillusioned law grads, particularly those who went to non-elite private law schools. If you go to a school like that, you will likely end up with huge debt, and the way the economy is now, you almost have to graduate in the top quarter of your class to get a decent paying job. I expect that if you polled the students who graduated in the bottom half of their class from non-elite law schools, you would find a lot of regret about having gone to law school. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/13 "2009-02-05T16:34:46Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > But what of the people who make the investments in student loans and foregone income without doing any research first? I don’t think you can reasonably say that they’re totally blameless. From the article (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Of course, not all history majors want to become historians. For many a bachelor’s degree is nothing but a stepping-stone to a professional degree. Joel Kellum is one of those. After graduating from the University of Virginia, he got into California Western. Kellum approached a law professor about the wisdom of borrowing for the tuition. > > “He said, ‘Don’t worry,’” Kellum recalls. “‘We had the same thing when we were in school.’” > > **Kellum filled out a fat packet of forms in his school’s financial aid office. Weeks later, he says, he got a call asking him to sign over a check to the school without any discussion of the loan terms. Kellum complied.** > > Only after he graduated, and his payments came due, did he dig into the details. What Kellum discovered was that, instead of cheap government loans, the bulk of his debt was in Signature loans: variable-rate debt from Sallie Mae. Kellum’s variable rate has ticked as high as 9% and his ex-wife’s to as much as 12%. > > Like many grads, Kellum and Coultas hit bumps along their career paths. **They deferred payments once when they were unemployed and twice more after their children were born. Each time, Kellum says, Sallie Mae tacked on fees for the delay. When he was a few days late making payments, he says, he got hit with more fees, which also accrued interest, and with a scolding.** Can somebody explain to me why I’m supposed to feel sorry for this guy? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/14 "2009-02-05T16:42:41Z")
Hmmm. There might be some good points to make about the cost-benefits of a college education, but I don’t think that article makes them. The lead-off example is not only cherry-picked to be as horrifying as possible, but it doesn’t even make any sense. The article profiles two married law school graduates, both with 6 figure incomes, who can’t figure out how to retire $200K in debt over the course of 15 years. The article also mentions an interest rate of 12% which is vastly above any student loan I’m aware of. This couple has financial management problems that are completely unrelated to their student loans. Given the lameness of the introduction, I’m not likely to believe that the author doesn’t have an agenda and hasn’t cooked the numbers for the rest of the article as well. For example, the author cites the old chestnut about college grads earning an extra million during their career, but notes that this gain has been eroded by the nearly $100K cost of a college education. Well, yes, if you assume a completely flat rate of inflation for the next 40 years, you might have some kind of point. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/15 "2009-02-05T16:44:36Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > From the article (bolding mine): > Can somebody explain to me why I’m supposed to feel sorry for this guy? Seriously. on the FIRST day of law school, in Contracts class, which is required in every law school as first year curriculum, they told us we had better read our promissory notes and read them carefully. Moreover, we have to specifically “accept” our loans individually, and they are itemized as to type (so many dollars Stafford subsidized, so many dollars Stafford unsubsidized, so many dollars GradPLUS, etc). It’s not like Uncle Sam sends you a big box of unmarked bills. And just because you take out a particular type of loan your first year, you do not HAVE to keep renewing them for 4 years. You can stop accepting particular loans any semester. This guy is a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/16 "2009-02-05T16:55:25Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > It is, if you assume that the only purpose of college is to have access to a better job and social network. This, and the OP may want to narrow it down to _American_ college (at least when it comes to debts. The idea that everyone must have a BA rather than go into the trades is probably still prevalent in countries where university is cheap or free). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/17 "2009-02-05T18:22:03Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > The lead-off example is not only cherry-picked to be as horrifying as possible, but it doesn’t even make any sense. The article profiles two married law school graduates, both with 6 figure incomes, who can’t figure out how to retire $200K in debt over the course of 15 years. The article also mentions an interest rate of 12% which is vastly above any student loan I’m aware of. This couple has financial management problems that are completely unrelated to their student loans. No kidding. I thought the numbers were way off, so I checked a bit with a calculator. In order to have a payment of $145k only take $21k of your initial $194k debt (assuming that all of the debt was as 12%) you would have to not pay a penny for **over four years**. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/18 "2009-02-05T18:43:54Z")
A relevant review of a book from 1989 [Profscam](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4D71738F93AA25751C0A96F948260) shows how things haven’t changed much in 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/19 "2009-02-05T18:47:43Z")
> [@Altair33](#): > > Thought provoking article- I went to state schools so my debt isn’t too bad, but I have some lawyer friends who went the private route and have crushing debt. > > [http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html) > > Why do you guys think- is the benefit of a college education overhyped? I think taking out private loans for a private school liberal arts education is overhyped. I think that education is not overhyped, and that even expensive private schools can offer value for the tuition dollar. But I can’t believe the number of parents I talk to who don’t save for college and then insist their kid go to some small private college (its got a really good Biology program) or out of state and “they can just take out loans.” And I can’t believe how many parents are doing this while driving new cars every two years and taking expensive vacations every year or choosing to be a stay at home parent for teenagers (“we can’t afford to save for college”). ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565/20 "2009-02-05T19:00:00Z")
Yeah, I’m not really getting these two lawyers’ financial situation either. Let’s assume a $195,000 debt at 12% interest. Let’s assume this even though I’ve NEVER seen a student loan even close to that high of interest and even if I blindly waltzed into it like he did, my mailbox would be overflowing with other offers to refinance that debt. Let’s also assume the worst of “two six figure incomes.” $200,000 total. A good debt payoff to earning ratio is around 20% of your income or $40,000 here. That’s $3,333 a month. Or a student debt for two law school educations that lasts 89 months! 7 years. Woo. Or perhaps he paid the minimum suggested payment. That would really be shocking, considering what a financial genius he seems to be. Let’s say $2000 a month? That’s $24,000 a year or about 12% of their combined income. This shouldn’t really hurt them all that much unless they’re spending the rest of hookers and blow. So yeah, I completely believe this article. College is a scam. Unless you take high school mathematics while you’re there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-is-college-education-a-scam/484565.md?page=2)