# Article on Christianity and gaybashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115 "2005-04-06T23:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/61 "2005-04-15T14:47:54Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > If **Gobear** says a dozen times that he doesnt mean me or **Siege** or **Sol** or **RT** or **Baker** when he attacks the mean-spirited “Christians” of the Religious Right, and one or two times neglects to tack on that disclaimer, it would be emulating the late Senators Nye and Borah, whom I detest, to take offense at that. That list you just posted is the problem. Making perjorative generalizations about all Christians because of the actions of a minority of them is wrong not because it falsely characterizes you, **Polycarp**. Nor is it wrong because it falsely characterizes **Seige** , or **Sol** , or **RT** or **Baker**. If you five where the only “good” Christians that were defamed by his generalizations then there really wouldn’t be a problem, because you five are an itty-bitty segment of Christianity, and, let’s face it, if a generalization applies to the overwhelming majority of a group, it’s not unfair to make it. Generalizations can be valid. However, you five do not have a monopoly on gay-affirming Christian belief. You are not the only gay affirming Christians on the planet, the US, or this board. As you mentioned earlier in the message I’m responding to, rabid right-wing US fundamentalism is a relatively modern invention and it’s not really representative of Christianity as a whole. And that’s why the generalizations suck: the don’t just defame you, **Seige** , **Sol** , **RT** and **Baker**. The defame a LOT of Christians. Entire denominations. Entire parishes within more neutral denominations. And even some individuals within conservative denominations. You may feel less offended because you, personally, get a “But He’s a GOOD Christian” pass; however, even so his comments are still impugning an awful lot of other people. And I don’t find the FDR example too convincing. **gobear** has a history of saying things that many construe to be insulting to them because of their religious identification–when he makes a statement about “Christians,” it’s certainly not obvious to everyone that he’s only talking about a specific group. Hell, you ( **Polycarp** ) have gotten pretty frustrated with him in the past–just how obvious can his sweet nature be? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/62 "2005-04-15T15:06:18Z")
Bullshit, **Metacom**. I get accused of that by people, no matter what I actually say. Even when I specify BY NAME the people with whom I have a problem, I get accused of smearing all Christians as anti-gay bigots. People have complained when I criticize fundies ("Oh, “fundie” is hate speech!) who populate the religious right, so I ma way past giving a shbit what you think. I don’t attack all Christians as “anti-gay execepot for a few good ones”; I have explicitly said over and over again that my annoyance is with the religious right who want to codify their religious tenets into the law. Perhaps people are conflating my philosophical opposition to religion with the rants about anti-gay religious groups. Yes, I’m an atheist who thinks that there is no reason to believe in God. That’s a viewpoint where every theist by definition has to diagree with me; they value faith, and I do not. They believe in God, and I don’t. But that is a SEPARATE FUCKING SUBJECT from my opposition to the stranglehold that the religious right has on American politics. On one subject, yes, I think that Christianity along with every other religion is based on myth; OTOH, I can respect people with whom I diagree philosophically yet who work for social progress, which includes a large segment of American theists. I keep saying that, and yet people still caricature what I say and put words in my mouth. It’s one of the reasons why you won’t see me here after April 28th. I seed no reason to spend money to be smeared by the wilfully dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/63 "2005-04-15T15:17:12Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Bullshit, **Metacom**. I get accused of that by people, no matter what I actually say. Even when I specify BY NAME the people with whom I have a problem, I get accused of smearing all Christians as anti-gay bigots. Put up or shut up. Show some examples that demonstrate a patter of people accusing you of smearing all Christians as anti-gay bigots when the post they’re responding to was made with a narrow brush. 'Cause off the top of my head, all the **gobear** and Christianity trainwrecks I can think of involved you using the wide brush. > [@gobear](#): > > Perhaps people are conflating my philosophical opposition to religion with the rants about anti-gay religious groups. You frequently phrase your “philosophical opposition” in a very condescending way that makes that which you oppose seem puerile, often by employing straw-man arguments. It’s not your philosophical opposition, it’s all the personal baggage you throw on to it. Compare: “I don’t believe in God” to “I don’t believe in God for the same reason I don’t believe the Keebler Elves are real.” They make the same argument, but the latter is obviously insulting. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/64 "2005-04-15T15:24:44Z")
> [@](#): > > And that’s why the generalizations suck: the don’t just defame you, Seige, Sol, RT and Baker. The defame a LOT of Christians. Entire denominations. Entire parishes within more neutral denominations. _And even some individuals within conservative denominations._ (italicized for emphasis). You may feel less offended because you, personally, get a “But He’s a GOOD Christian” pass; however, even so his comments are still impugning an awful lot of other people. Adn that bothers me. Of course, some people in conservative denominations will differ form their leaders in some matters, but individuals do not speak for the denomination. Their leaders do. Take the late Pope, for instance. As leader of the Catholic Church, he explicitly condemned gay marriage as oart of an “ideology of evil.” So it is accurate to say that the Catholic Church opposes gay marriage. Now this will outrage gay-friendly Catholics who will complain that they are being smeared with a generalization, but they are dissenters form a policy that has been set by an organization at a level above theirs. The Pope spoke, and he set the policy of the Church. Individual may disagree with the Pope’s decision, but that they can’t speak for the organization, and he could. There is a difference in meaning between “the Catholic Church” and “all Catholics” ; the Catholic Church says gay marriage is evil, but not all Catholics do. The same is true fof any statment aobut a collective group. “America is at war with Iraq.” Many Americans, maybve even a plurality of Americans, oppose the war, but they can only speak for themselves as individual Americans, not as spokesmen for US policy. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/65 "2005-04-15T15:27:20Z")
☹ gobear, I am one of the prime offenders when it comes to tarring all christians with the same brush, unlike yourself, but that is for another forum. Anyway, I am sorry to see you go. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/66 "2005-04-15T15:30:05Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > So it is accurate to say that the Catholic Church opposes gay marriage. Now this will outrage gay-friendly Catholics who will complain that they are being smeared with a generalization I doubt that statement (verbatim!) would outrage gay-friendly Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/67 "2005-04-15T15:40:31Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Put up or shut up. Show some examples that demonstrate a patter of people accusing you of smearing all Christians as anti-gay bigots when the post they’re responding to was made with a narrow brush. Hell, I already pointed out **Zoe** ’s post condemning for generalizing when I specifically condemned _some_ church leaders. > [@](#): > > 'Cause off the top of my head, all the **gobear** and Christianity trainwrecks I can think of involved you using the wide brush. No, they involved hysterical ninnies accusing me of using the large brush. > [@](#): > > You frequently phrase your “philosophical opposition” in a very condescending way that makes that which you oppose seem puerile, often by employing straw-man arguments. It’s not your philosophical opposition, it’s all the personal baggage you throw on to it. > > Compare: “I don’t believe in God” to “I don’t believe in God for the same reason I don’t believe the Keebler Elves are real.” They make the same argument, but the latter is obviously insulting. So? Why are we supposed to tug our forelocks and respect mythology? I don’t believe in Zeus or Re or Odin or Chthulhu, but Yahweh I am supposed to speak of in nothing but reverence. Why? He’s no more real than, yes, the Keebler Elves, or Santa Claus or leprechauns. Why am I supposed to be reverent about a nonexistent entity? There’s no evidence for the existence of gods and a great deal of evidence against it. I would be very happy to see humanity grow up and shake off the shackles of religion and magical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/68 "2005-04-15T15:45:16Z")
And I’ll share an H.L. Mencken quote with you: > [@](#): > > True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/69 "2005-04-15T15:50:35Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Hell, I already pointed out **Zoe** ’s post condemning for generalizing when I specifically condemned _some_ church leaders. WTF? Zoe was responding to **Liberal** , who was speaking about your generalizations! You can’t say she was responding to you criticizing some church leaders. You’re missatributing the context of her post. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/70 "2005-04-15T15:53:46Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > WTF? Zoe was responding to **Liberal** , who was speaking about your generalizations! You can’t say she was responding to you criticizing some church leaders. You’re missatributing the context of her post. Respoding to me directly? No. Talking about me? Hell, yeah. > [@Zoe](#): > > Sorry. I disagree. Since **gobear** has been a victim of bigotry and discrimination, I would expect **him** to be even more on guard against any tendency to generalize, stereotype, label and victimize others with bigotry. **He** is well aware that there are Christians here who support full rights for homosexuals and that the Episcopal Church has split from the Anglican Communion over the ordination of a practicing homosexual bishop. Misattributing, my aunt Agatha! ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/71 "2005-04-15T15:54:02Z")
Once again, it’s not your position; it’s how you argue it. No one is saying you don’t have a right to make your position known. But it is charming how you always try and pretend that people are–it makes you look quite the opressed little victim. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/72 "2005-04-15T15:54:57Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And I’ll share an H.L. Mencken quote with you:\ **Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/73 "2005-04-15T15:57:44Z") > [@gobear](#): > > Respoding to me directly? No. Talking about me? Hell, yeah. So what? We weren’t talking about whether she was talking about you, we were talking about whether that post was an example of someone attacking you for using a broad brush when you’d used a narrow one. Since she wasn’t responding directly to something you said, but rather another posters comments about how you do use a wide brush, it’s obviously not an example of someone attacking you for making a generalization you hadn’t made. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/74 "2005-04-15T15:58:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Once again, it’s not your position; it’s how you argue it. No one is saying you don’t have a right to make your position known. But it is charming how you always try and pretend that people are–it makes you look quite the opressed little victim. Again, where the hell are you getting that? I’m nobody’s “little victim,” bitch. I like to be clear about where I stand. If you don’t like it, too fucking bad. I live to please myself, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/75 "2005-04-15T16:03:29Z")
**Polycarp** , do you think that to suggest that a post must be addressed directly to someone to attack them is asinine in the extreme. Would you agree that **Metacom** fellow is one stupid dumbass to think so? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/76 "2005-04-15T16:03:55Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > So what? We weren’t talking about whether she was talking about you, we were talking about whether that post was an example of someone attacking you for using a broad brush when you’d used a narrow one. Since she wasn’t responding directly to something you said, but rather another posters comments about how you do use a wide brush, it’s obviously not an example of someone attacking you for making a generalization you hadn’t made. Read it again. She is most certainly arguing that I made a generalization about Christians. The poiont is not to whom she addresses the comments, but the subject of the comments. I swear, if you’re this intentionally obtuse that you can’t read simple English for clear meaning, then I just give up. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/77 "2005-04-15T16:03:56Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Again, where the hell are you getting that? You imply that people are saying you shouldn’t communicate your opinion. That is false. People are saying you shouldn’t communicate your opinion in an insulting manner. The former makes you look like you and your views are being opressed. You seem to like that portrayal, because it makes you seem sympathetic. I don’t know how to make what I’m getting at any clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/78 "2005-04-15T16:05:48Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > **Polycarp** , do you think that to suggest that a post must be addressed directly to someone to attack them is asinine in the extreme. Would you agree that **Metacom** fellow is one stupid dumbass to think so? Is this in regards to the **Zoe** bit, or generalizations in general? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/79 "2005-04-15T16:10:47Z")
On second thought, a better question to ask would be: Why do you think I believe a post must be directed to someone to attack them? My argument isn’t: **Zoe** isn’t insulting **gobear** because she wasn’t responding to him. It’s: **Zoe** ’s post isn’t an example of someone attacking **gobear** for making a generalization that he didn’t make. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115/80 "2005-04-15T16:11:32Z")
> [@Heloise](#): > > That we all aren’t what way? Gay bashers? Or gay haters? My point was that not all Christians condone that sort of behaviour, but if you mean I need to prove that I’m not a gay hater, email me. I’ll have my former roommate give you a call. And he knows my beliefs quite well. Other than him, I think most people who know me also know my beliefs and know how I feel. What is it, exactly, that you want me to prove to you? My lifestyle? What, you want references? I WANT YOU TO BE \*\*LOUDER \*\*AND ORGANIZE AND STAND ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE BAD GUYS WHEN THEY DEMONSTRATE AND **DEMONSTRATE LOUDER!** MORE OFTEN! MAKE THE FACE OF CHRISTIANITY SOMETHING OTHER THAN BIGOTRY! SOMETHING LESS HATEFUL AND **MORE TOLERANT!** Or quit associating yourself with christianity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-on-christianity-and-gaybashing/298115.md?page=5)