# Article: Would It Be Fair to Treat Vaccinated Covid Patients First? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [August 24, 2021, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415 "2021-08-24T04:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/41 "2021-08-24T23:20:24Z")
Why do they rely on Doctors and medicine when they are sick, but not to prevent the illness? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/42 "2021-08-25T00:13:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is a doctor being un-ethical if they do what is best for the overall health of their community? In my opinion, yes. Unless it can be demonstrated that the community would experience real clear and present harm. Otherwise, some docs will refuse to give lifesaving treatment to the intoxicated due to fear that the drunk will kill someone by DUI. Or not treat a gunshot victim if he’s a drug dealer, lest a future customer die of OD. Etc. etc. Besides, who’s going to interrogate the victim to find out what their beliefs/lifestyles are, and determine if they’re fit to live? Not me, I’ve got other things I need to do for sick people. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/43 "2021-08-25T08:39:19Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Why do they rely on Doctors and medicine when they are sick, but not to prevent the illness? Because people are dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/44 "2021-08-25T12:52:35Z")
I think the issue here is different than treating drunk people. In this case we literally are running out of ICU beds, running out of ventilators and (as noted above) some hospitals are closing their emergency rooms which affects anyone with an emergency of any sort. Unvaccinated people are making matters worse and causing an ongoing problem. Hospital staff in many areas are [starting to complain](https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/75-florida-doctors-stage-walkout-in-protest-of-unvaccinated-covid-19-patients/) that they simply [cannot keep up the pace](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/569038-oregon-doctors-to-unvaccinated-we-cannot-keep-fighting-without-your-help). If you tell people ahead of time that if they are unvaccinated they will not be treated at the hospital then they can make their own choice knowing the consequences of that choice. This video is not exactly on topic for the OP but it has some relevance and is interesting: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/pd8P12BXebo/maxresdefault.jpg "Dying in the Name of Vaccine Freedom | NYT Opinion") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/45 "2021-08-25T12:58:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Can the case me made that the best way to push people to get vaccinated is to withhold treatment if they refuse? Not really. It’s not remotely the ‘best’ way and is far closer to being entirely useless than it is to being even somewhat effective. It’s comparable to an attempt to reduce crime by increasing sentencing guidelines. Criminals don’t commit crimes with the expectation of being caught, and anti-vaxxers don’t avoid vaccines with the expectation of needing a ventilator. While I’m fine conceptually with de-prioritizing unvaxxed Covid patients, it shouldn’t be for the purpose encouraging vaccination. If there is another, legitimate, reason to put them further down the list, let’s do that, otherwise it should be normal triage. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/46 "2021-08-25T20:59:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Given that a considerable number of unvaxxed patients are desperately regretful about their poor decision when they are near intubation or in serious risk of death… And many are not. @Johnny_L.A posted the article below in another thread. > **[‘As they’re being intubated, they still don’t believe it.’ The COVID denial...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/being-intubated-still-don-t-100000864.html)** > > One man walked out of a Kansas City hospital, still tethered to oxygen. And 12 hours later, he was on a ventilator in another emergency room. | Opinion from Michael Ryan Some tidbits: > Our friends in health care [have seen plenty to impale the heart](https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article253675728.html) in this COVID-19 pandemic, but nothing more tragic than this: the sight of guilt-ridden young children who believe they’ve killed [an unvaccinated parent](https://dailycaller.com/2021/08/23/florida-doctors-walkout-covid-coronavirus-unvaccinated-msnbc/) by bringing the virus home. > > “And as they’re dying, the kids are at the bedside apologizing,” a hospital nurse tells me. And… > “He asked her if she’d had her vaccine, and he was just like, ‘You’re stupid,’” the nurse says. “Just laid into her about how everybody’s falling for what the government says and COVID’s not real and you shouldn’t get the vaccine. While he’s laying in an ICU bed.” While the story has more anecdotes the people telling these stories say they see this kind of thing all the time. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/47 "2021-08-25T23:20:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > To get technical, though, how would they prove vaccination? Big problem. Governments had many months, before any vaccine was available, to build a system so vaccine status could be verified. They didn’t, so those of us who are pro-mandate have a problem. Next time, they should. And failing to be vaccinated should be punished by a fine, as was commonplace during local epidemics a century ago. As for medical staff, not treating the unvaccinated equally would be unethical. I would like it if those hospitals which have required vaccination for all staff to put up signs to that effect, and also mention a preference that unvaxxed patients, on a voluntary basis, seek care elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/48 "2021-08-25T23:36:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m the hardest pro-vaxxer anywhere but I think patients should be treated by severity. It makes no sense to treat a light-symptom vaxxed patient over a near-death unvaxxed. If that means unvaxxed first, unfortunately, but presumably they’re remorseful by then. The $70,000 bill they’ll get will be more than enough punishment anyway. It has nothing to do with punishment. In normal times, severity is how cases are triaged. When resources are low, that isn’t necessarily the first criterion. When things get really bleak, triage sometimes has to prioritize who has the greatest chance of survival. If you are unvaxxed, your outcome is more dire. If they have to choose, the person who will more likely survive will be the one chosen. That’s kind of why we’ve been encouraging vaccination and social distancing. To flatten the curve and not make medical professionals have to choose. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/49 "2021-08-28T00:29:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think this can be a tough one: No tougher than deciding whether to treat normal weight patients with M.I.s before morbidly obese ones. Or deciding if the non-smoker with pneumonia gets precedence for an I.C.U. bed over a smoker. Isn’t it a cardinal principle of medicine to conduct triage according to moral judgments? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/50 "2021-08-28T01:57:12Z")
Again…there is an important distinction here. The hospitals are running out of ICU beds and some are closing their ERs. So many people refusing vaccination are overwhelming our medical system. More, it is not a temporary blip where a hospital is overwhelmed for a few hours. This looks to go on for weeks or months. Obese people are not flooding ERs and shutting them down. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/51 "2021-08-28T05:02:33Z")
To add to my previous post…stuff like this: > **[Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/)** > > The surge in new COVID cases is putting an enormous strain on hospitals, jeopardizing patients who cannot get the medical attention they need because of a lack of space. Obese people do not affect my health. Unvaccinated people do affect my health. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/52 "2021-08-28T17:11:56Z")
Problem with all of this is that sometimes you still may be picking an unvaccinated over a vaccinated in triage. I am guessing a 30 year old unvaccinated has better chance of survival than 75 year old vaccinated, once they get to the point of needing an ICU bed. Yeah, the 30 year old will survive the experience more likely, but their decision is taking resources away from someone else who could have had a better chance. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/53 "2021-08-28T21:25:50Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Governments had many months, before any vaccine was available, to build a system so vaccine status could be verified. Well, at least a few local governments have. My job just started requiring mandatory verified vaccination or 2x/week testing (and it may soon became mandated period now that Pfizer has full approval). Per HR said vaccination cannot be verified by a simple image of your vaccination card, but only by a [downloadable QR code from the California state database](https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/) (which then just takes you to a picture of your card). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/54 "2021-08-29T16:25:58Z")
There are potentially devastating long-term social implications of politicizing healthcare, and we can say that refusing to care for the unvaccinated is not a political decision, but that’s really what it is. There would be a breakdown in trust between the health professions and the communities they serve. In fact, this breakdown in trust is cited as one of the reasons that African Americans are vaccine-hesitant, and understandably so. The best place to put pressure on the anti-vaxxers is to make their lives inconvenient. Make it harder for them to work, to socialize with others, to eat out at a restaurant. Isolate them out there, but not when they’re sick. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/55 "2021-08-29T16:55:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > In fact, this breakdown in trust is cited as one of the reasons that African Americans are vaccine-hesitant, and understandably so. I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I’ve been curious about this. As I understand it, Africa-Americans cite the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. But in that case, vaccines were withheld. Today, vaccines are being given. It’s the opposite of what happened at Tuskegee. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/56 "2021-08-29T17:01:43Z")
It’s a lack of trust in the public health system, not so much distrust of the vaccines. Some – I have no idea how many – don’t trust healthcare institutions (public or private) to act in their best interests. For some, they might be vaccine hesitant; for others, this lack of trust might be manifest differently. I was just using that one example to show that it’s potentially - likely - counterproductive to impede access to healthcare to punish those who avoid vaccination and end up needing a hospital bed. I have no problem with standard triage, and perhaps even some rationing such as keeping certain beds or hospital wings open for non-COVID cases. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2021, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/57 "2021-09-04T07:13:32Z")
And it continues: > **[Opinion | Doctors should be allowed to give priority to vaccinated patients...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/03/doctors-should-be-allowed-give-priority-vaccinated-patients-when-resources-are-scarce/)** > > This is an uncomfortable conversation. The irresponsibly unvaccinated have made it a necessary one. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2021, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/58 "2021-09-04T10:55:01Z")
And more: > **[Ivermectin Poisoning On The Rise In Oklahoma As Right-Wing Vouches For Horse...](https://www.latintimes.com/ivermectin-poisoning-rise-oklahoma-right-wing-vouches-horse-dewormer-against-covid-19-484525)** > > As COVID-19 cases surge across the country, people are also being hospitalized for Ivermectin poisoning after taking the horse dewormer as an attempt to prevent COVID-19. > “All of their ambulances are stuck at the hospital waiting for a bed to open so they can take the patient in and they don’t have any, that’s it,” Dr. Jason McElyea, a doctor based in Oklahoma, said. “If there’s no ambulance to take the call, there’s no ambulance to come to the call.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/59 "2021-09-04T15:10:04Z")
The unfortunate part is not only are the ambulances unavailable for the unvaccinated and Ivermectin self-dosers, they are out for everybody else as well. I’d say stories about some guy who had a stroke unrelated to either but couldn’t be treated in ER because of that need to be played up, but don’t think it would move the needle with those who are willingly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415/60 "2021-09-05T02:27:00Z")
If an antivaxxer or invermectin overdoser comes into hospital and there is an available bed, staff and equipment, then treat them and give them standard care. If a situation develops where somebody vaccinated presents with covid, or a stroke, accident or other patient needs a bed, and there is none available, then the antivaxxer/invermectin overdoser should be removed from the room, put in a hallway or parking garage and given compassionate comfort relief only. Let them pass away peacefully, while giving regular care to regular patients. It’s what they signed up for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/article-would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/949415.md?page=4)