# Articles of Secession **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402 "2010-04-08T13:35:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/41 "2010-04-09T14:53:58Z")
The loss of federal defense dollars would be a blow to many states, and it’s particularly concentrated in some locations. If California were to secede, San Diego would be devastated, and L.A. would be hit hard. (On the other hand, if the fleet moved to Seattle, then Washington would benefit). Texas would have to pick up the cost of border control. NJ is in significant part a suburb of NYC and Philadelphia. Unless those cities came too, there would be little benefit for it in seceding. Florida might be a possible success on an agriculture and tourism basis. Snowbirds might not retire there as much, I guess. Massachusetts might be another possibility. Could Boston’s economy support the state? I guess Mass. wouldn’t be self-sufficient in food, and its universities would suffer if federal financial aid is no longer available. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/42 "2010-04-09T15:15:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If the state is independent, then why is it the business of the United States what rights it gives its citizens, what its environmental policy is or what its foreign relations are? In this case we are talking about a US state seceding from the Union. The US government sees those people in that state as its citizens and their responsibility up until the moment of secession. If the federal government were to allow a state to secede the feds will want to ensure at least some rights for those citizens. Else letting a state secede to do whatever it wants may be tantamount to the government blithely throwing some of its citizens under the bus. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/43 "2010-04-09T15:17:51Z")
Legal drugs could do wonders for a new country’s tourist trade. NH already makes a great deal of money - and taxes - from tourists. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/44 "2010-04-09T15:41:45Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > What travel rights does the seceding state have? If say, South Dakota wants to secede it is pretty well landlocked, isn’t it? Do its people/good have the right to travel thru/over the US to get to another foreign nation? Similarly, I live in Connecticut. If NY were to secede, I’d have to travel through a (potentially unfriendly) foreign country if I want to drive to my parents’ place in Illinois. Of course, that condition exists now for travelling to/from Alaska, but our border with Canada is quite open, which might not happen after a secession. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/45 "2010-04-09T15:54:58Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Similarly, I live in Connecticut. If NY were to secede, I’d have to travel through a (potentially unfriendly) foreign country if I want to drive to my parents’ place in Illinois. Of course, that condition exists now for travelling to/from Alaska, but our border with Canada is quite open, which might not happen after a secession. You could drive north and go through Canada. The point is though that such circumstances could exist all over the world. An unfriendly country may lie between you and somewhere you want to go. Somehow the world manages though and in most cases a route can be found even if it is not the shortest route. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/46 "2010-04-09T16:58:51Z")
What about Hawaii? First of all, there is a justification for independence due to the annexation (IIRC it is PL 101-150 where the US formally apoligized for it) Tourism and produce provide some economy An arrangement can be made where the US Government “rents” Pearl Harbor and Hickham Field. Think of the arrangement with Gitmo but friendlier. Not part of the continental US ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/47 "2010-04-09T20:21:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What about Hawaii? The link I posted above says that Hawaii is the 12 largest recepient of federal aid per taxes sent (they get $1.44 for every dollar). Not a big incentive to leave, unless they want to deal with the resulting unemployment, increased taxes and decreased services. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/48 "2010-04-09T22:17:23Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Similarly, I live in Connecticut. If NY were to secede, I’d have to travel through a (potentially unfriendly) foreign country if I want to drive to my parents’ place in Illinois. Of course, that condition exists now for travelling to/from Alaska, but our border with Canada is quite open, which might not happen after a secession. Connecticut could reassert a claim for its [original](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12322786&postcount=38) colonial territory, stretching out to Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/49 "2010-04-10T00:30:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If the federal government were to allow a state to secede the feds will want to ensure at least some rights for those citizens. Else letting a state secede to do whatever it wants may be tantamount to the government blithely throwing some of its citizens under the bus. What’s in it for the state, though? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/50 "2010-04-10T01:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > If the federal government were to allow a state to secede the feds will want to ensure at least some rights for those citizens. Else letting a state secede to do whatever it wants may be tantamount to the government blithely throwing some of its citizens under the bus. They’re not American citizens after the secession. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/51 "2010-04-10T01:53:29Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > When Quebec held its last referendum on separation in 1995, the Cree in the northern part of the province held their own referendum prior to the vote, and voted 96% to stay in Canada. No one knew what that meant if Quebec’s referendum succeeded and the Quebec Provincial Government issued the unilateral statement of separation they had planned, but it threw a huge wrench into the proceedings. The Cree claimed something like 15% of the territory of the province. The Quebec government actually had the nerve to say that their referendum to separate from Quebec didn’t count, while Quebec’s did. The indivisibility of Quebec question is exactly what prompted my comment. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/52 "2010-04-10T02:02:16Z")
It would be interesting to know how Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, or the U.S.S.R. handled these issues when each split up. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/53 "2010-04-10T02:13:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > …any state that wants true independence will never get it until they build up a sufficient military to make invasion prohibitively expensive, which (I guess) is pretty much necessary for _any_ truly independent state. [Costa Rica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Costa_Rica)? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/54 "2010-04-10T02:16:10Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > A related question: are there any states that could potentially succeed after secession? Off hand I would guess only Texas and California. Why would you think that? There are several “successful” (that is, enduring, and relatively prosperous) sovereign nation-states in the world today that are smaller (in geography or population or both) than any U.S. state. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/55 "2010-04-10T02:53:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What’s in it for the state, though? Not being attacked as soon as they leave the union. Even a group of states couldn’t pull off beating the Union army. A single state is definitely not in any position to make demands. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/56 "2010-04-10T14:00:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They’re not American citizens after the secession. True but crucially they ARE American citizens prior to secession. If, for whatever reason, the Federal government was considering allowing a state to secede then they have a positive duty to look after those people. As such you can bet they would make demands of the wannabe country before ever allowing it out of the union. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/57 "2010-04-10T14:22:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not being attacked as soon as they leave the union. Even a group of states couldn’t pull off beating the Union army. A single state is definitely not in any position to make demands. Right, but they’re hardly “leaving the union” if as soon as they “leave”, they’re saddled with a large debt to the United States and they’re unable to conduct domestic or foreign policy against American wishes. They’re still under the control of the US government, they’ve just lost the right to influence that government through voting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402/58 "2010-04-10T14:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > True but crucially they ARE American citizens prior to secession. If, for whatever reason, the Federal government was considering allowing a state to secede then they have a positive duty to look after those people. As such you can bet they would make demands of the wannabe country before ever allowing it out of the union. That issue is covered by the provision allowing anyone living in the state to freely leave and relocate to some other state that’s staying in the union. Anyone who wants to retain the rights of being an American citizen can do so by remaining in America. But if you’re voluntarily leaving the country you shouldn’t expect to take your rights with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/articles-of-secession/535402.md?page=2)