# Artificially Enhanced Wind Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317 "2012-05-08T20:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![supery00n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@supery00n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supery00n)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/1 "2012-05-08T20:02:49Z")
Hey I’ve been thinking quite a bit about alternative energy and it seems to me that there are three really big possibilities ahead: solar, wind, and nuclear. I wasn’t really too big on wind so much because of its intermittent nature where it’s economical. So it got me thinking a little bit. And I noticed that the power output from a wind turbine is jointly proportional to the area (or the radius squared) of the imaginary disc swept out by the blades as well as the _ **cube** _ of the wind speed. The cube of the wind speed is what really got my attention because if the wind speed were greater, say, by a factor of 3, then you could get an equal power output with a much smaller blade radius (and hence area), thus reducing material costs. But the problem is, wind speeds are variable even where the average wind speeds are high enough to justify wind power investment over alternatives (such as solar), or over the status quo. But what if you set up a controlled environment in which you produce winds that are really fast, and unchanging with time? I looked up how fast a leafblower blasts out air, and I found that leafblowers that are run-of-the-mill and can be purchased at a home improvement store blow out wind at an adjustable speed between 140 and 270 mph. Now there’s a wind turbine with a blade diameter of 154 feet located in the Palm Springs area where the average wind speed is 18 mph. Making a calculation gives that a wind turbine exposed to a speed of 270 mph, to produce the same power as the average power produced by the wind turbine in Palm Springs just mentioned, would only need to be 2.65 feet in diameter. That’s quite a bit bigger than a leafblower’s tube diameter, but only by a factor of 5 or so. And a leafblower uses very little power, obviously, compared to that wind turbine’s output. Increasing the area of the leafblower’s “blowing tube” to 3 feet would certainly not increase its power usage to that equal to the power generated by a wind turbine encased inside its tube with diameter 2.65 feet and wind speed generated of 270 mph, which would produce a power output of equal to a wind turbine whose blade is 154 feet wide (each turbine in the Palm Springs location generates an average of 25 kW; the total 4,000 turbines generate an average power of 100 MW). I am pretty sure the continuous operation of a wind tunnel/leaf blower kind of tool to generate the high winds is certainly not going to be close to 25 kW for a cylindrical tube only 3 feet in diameter. (When I said “leafblower,” I don’t mean literally one…=) I just mean something that generates high winds of any desired and high speed. Wind tunnel would be a better description; it’s obvious that wind tunnels can generate speeds as fast as jet planes travel; some 500 mph at least). Do you think it’s a reasonable idea to not just accept whatever wind the environment provides, but rather, create an artificial wind of extremely high and steady speed, thus consuming power, but using that high wind speed to decrease the size of the turbine yet still get a reasonable amount of power output that exceeds the power input to generate that wind? Also, the wind doesn’t completely have to be artificially generated. An input wind can be funneled through some corridor or engineered structure that by virtue of its geometry, increases the local wind speed. I have a feeling that this violates one of the laws of thermodynamics though. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/2 "2012-05-08T20:11:05Z")
Wind can be funneled to create greater velocity and improve windmill efficiency. It’s just not very practical. Early Asian iron making techniques used monsoon winds funneled into a furnace, so it can be done. I think you would be in trouble with the thermodynamics police if you produced more energy from an artificial source than that source used. ---
**Author:** ![SmithCommaJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@SmithCommaJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmithCommaJohn)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/3 "2012-05-08T20:13:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think you would be in trouble with the thermodynamics police if you produced more energy from an artificial source than that source used. Lousy government! Always getting in the way of innovation! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/4 "2012-05-08T21:04:32Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > I have a feeling that this violates one of the laws of thermodynamics though. You said it. You need to repeal one of those laws to make your proposal practical. 🙂 On the odd chance that you are serious, but uninformed, I regret to inform you that an “artificial” wind directed at an electrical generating device will only net _less_ power than what you started with. No Free Lunch, and all that, not to mention perpetual motion isn’t possible. You can convert energy from one form to another, but you cannot get out more than what you put in. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/5 "2012-05-08T21:17:08Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > I looked up how fast a leafblower blasts out air, and I found that leafblowers that are run-of-the-mill and can be purchased at a home improvement store blow out wind at an adjustable speed between 140 and 270 mph. Careful here. That’s likely its peak speed, not its average wind speed throughout the entire nozzle area. The velocity at the walls is going to be zero. For example, I checked the specs on a 50cc leaf blower, and its rated at 251 mph@701 CFM. Dividing one by the other gives a nozzle area of only 0.03 ft^2, which is 177 times smaller than your hypothetical 2.65 ft diameter turbine. > [@supery00n](#): > > (each turbine in the Palm Springs location generates an average of 25 kW; the total 4,000 turbines generate an average power of 100 MW). 25 kW is only 33.5 horsepower. How much horsepower do you think that 177x 50cc 2 stroke engines is going to produce? I’ll bet its _lots_ more than 33.5 hp. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/6 "2012-05-08T22:18:01Z")
Wouldn’t the power used to create the artificial wind exceed that recoverable from the turbine? Why not use that power directly? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/7 "2012-05-08T22:41:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Wind can be funneled to create greater velocity and improve windmill efficiency. It’s just not very practical. It’s the main reason the early wind farms in Oregon and Washington were downwind from the Columbia Gorge. It’s a natural wind funnel, so that area has the best wind in the region. > [@](#): > > I think you would be in trouble with the thermodynamics police if you produced more energy from an artificial source than that source used. [voice=Homer Simpson] In this country, we obey the laws of thermodynamics. [/voice] ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/8 "2012-05-09T00:08:18Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Wouldn’t the power used to create the artificial wind exceed that recoverable from the turbine? Unquestionably. One clue to this would be the noise, heat and extraneous air motion (all of which represent wasted energy) that would necessarily be part of this scheme. There’s also an interesting concept known as [Betz’ Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz%27_law) that says a windmill can extract a maximum of 59.3% of the energy of the wind it receives - so you must necessarily lose at least 40% of the wind energy your powered blower is able to produce. > [@](#): > > The law can be simply explained by considering that if all of the energy coming from wind movement into the turbine were converted into useful energy then the wind speed afterwards would be zero. But, if the wind stopped moving at the exit of the turbine, then no more fresh wind could get in - it would be blocked. In order to keep the wind moving through the turbine, to keep getting energy, there has to be some wind movement on the outside with energy left in it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/9 "2012-05-09T06:06:49Z")
[morbo] Windmills do not work that way! [/morbo] ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/10 "2012-05-09T17:20:30Z")
It wouldn’t make much sense engineering-wise to put anything in front of the windmill blades, even for the sake of smoothing or regulating output. Most wind turbines are designed to pivot into the direction of the wind. The mass of the turbine causes that pivot action to lag changes in wind direction. That lag means that the turbine is not aligned for efficient operation and so power output suffers during a turn. If you add any kind of hardware in front of the turbine blades it too must pivot with wind changes and its added mass and position from the center of the pivot will only work to increase the time it takes to turn. So the idea fails on more than one front. - Any energy that could be used to run a blower would be better used to drive an electric turbine and make electricity directly - it loses the battle to regulate the wind turbine by robbing its efficiency in other areas. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/11 "2012-05-09T17:41:28Z")
While we’re at it, why don’t we set up huge banks of spotlights and point them at all those solar cells out in the desert so they can produce electricity at night too? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/12 "2012-05-09T18:01:00Z")
dtilque: > [@](#): > > In this country, we obey the laws of thermodynamics. Nitpick: In this _house_. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/13 "2012-05-09T18:05:07Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > Also, the wind doesn’t completely have to be artificially generated. An input wind can be funneled through some corridor or engineered structure that by virtue of its geometry, increases the local wind speed. This is really the only idea in your post that would help produce net energy. I haven’t heard of anyone doing this, and the scope of engineering would probably make it too expense to be worthwhile, but it is certainly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/14 "2012-05-09T18:15:01Z")
Wait a minute! I thought all wind power development had been halted in the US because the coal lobby warned that wind farms may blow Earth off orbit. I know it’s true because I saw it online somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/15 "2012-05-09T19:40:25Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > And a leafblower uses very little power, obviously, compared to that wind turbine’s output. You’ve got it backwards. A leafblower _ **obviously** _\* uses a lot of power compared to the output of a wind turbine it is powerful enough to move. \*Yes. Bold, underlined, italics obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/16 "2012-05-09T19:44:20Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > While we’re at it, why don’t we set up huge banks of spotlights and point them at all those solar cells out in the desert so they can produce electricity at night too? Right. And we can have that solar energy power a leaf blower. Which we’ll point at a wind turbine… that powers spotlights. But I have a feeling this would cause small black holes to form, so that could be bad. ---
**Author:** ![PacifistPorcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PacifistPorcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PacifistPorcupine)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/17 "2012-05-09T19:55:46Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Right. > > And we can have that solar energy power a leaf blower. Which we’ll point at a wind turbine… that powers spotlights. This is not green enough. The spotlights should be used to provide light for greenhouses growing grass, then get cows to eat the grass and collect methane from the cows. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/18 "2012-05-09T21:32:13Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > But I have a feeling this would cause small black holes to form, so that could be bad. Small black holes give off lots of radiation, which can also help power the solar panels. Plus the wind formed from all the air being sucked into the black hole will help drive the windmills! Win-win! Our energy problems are solved! The future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/19 "2012-05-10T03:01:13Z")
> [@PacifistPorcupine](#): > > …then get cows to eat the grass and collect methane from the cows. Put the wind turbines behind the cows and double up! ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317/20 "2012-05-10T08:33:14Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Nitpick: In this _house_. Ask not what your house can do for you. Ask what you can do for your house. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artificially-enhanced-wind-power/621317.md?page=2)