# Artists (and others) - Do people want your services for too cheap? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 4, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046 "2010-10-04T20:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/41 "2010-10-05T13:18:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the problem is that artists have an over-inflated sense of the value of their own work. An artist’s work is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it and nothing more. I’ll give everyone who ignores this post a handmade troll doll. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/42 "2010-10-05T13:20:54Z")
It’s funny, but the crafters in this thread seem to be getting hopelessly screwed, mainly because their prospective buyers are trying to get “useful” objects that cost the crafters 100s of hours of their time–who would ever wrap herself in $1000 blanket. But the fine artists set a price geared for appreciating their artwork–it’s a tough sale, a few grand for a painting, but that’s the price. But it’s not like you’re inherently screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/43 "2010-10-05T13:25:14Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > It’s funny, but the crafters in this thread seem to be getting hopelessly screwed, mainly because their prospective buyers are trying to get “useful” objects that cost the crafters 100s of hours of their time–who would ever wrap herself in $1000 blanket. > > But the fine artists set a price geared for appreciating their artwork–it’s a tough sale, a few grand for a painting, but that’s the price. But it’s not like you’re inherently screwed. Different mindset usually. Most crafters I know put a lot of love and effort into their work. It is a hobby and they remember all the time spent, things that happened, etc during the process. That piece is a labor of love, not an object to be sold to whoever for whatever. As an artist selling work, I remember that I watched/ listened to 4 episodes of _whatever show_ on hulu because I need to remember I spent 4 hrs on the piece. I then pay myself a generous 2-10 dollars an hr for my creativity and get on with life. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/44 "2010-10-05T13:30:21Z")
> [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > And many people posting on bulletin boards and chat lists have an over-inflated sense that their thoughts and ideas are worth anything yet the drivel continues _ad nauseum._ I think that your time and talent are too valuable to waste on a threadshitter. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/45 "2010-10-05T13:48:50Z")
After buying a really nice painting from a gallery I was having dinner with the artist and he told me how much he appreciated me not haggling over the price. He didn’t paint a large number of works during the year but he’d obviously poured his heart into each of them. Apparently though it was common for people to ask him to accept less. I got a call from [David Reidel](http://davidriedelfineart.com/) after buying a couple of his paintings as he was having trouble with a gallery apparently telling him they’d discounted his work. I told him what we’d actually paid, full price, and about a month later out of the blue I get another beautiful painting of his in the mail from him along with a very nice note. I’d never offer less than the listed price to an artist out of fear of it being taken as an insult but that apparently doesn’t hold true for everyone. Either I like it at that price or I don’t, that simple. Not that offereing less is right or wrong, I’d just never do it. ---
**Author:** ![apollonia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/46 "2010-10-05T13:49:11Z")
My mother is a quilter. She makes a lot of baby quilts for family members and close friends, and frequently when she gives them to the recipient at a baby shower, someone she doesn’t know will come up and ask “Oh, could you make one for my daughter/niece/friend/whoever?” And they’re always gobsmacked to hear that it’ll be damn expensive–good fabric costs more than crap from Wal-Mart that will fade and fray after the first wash, plus all the work that goes into a quilt–laying, cutting, piecing, assembling, pinning, on and on and on it goes. But my mother is a smart lady, and doesn’t work for idiots who expect that a hand-made quilt will cost the same as a pre-frayed piece of crap from Babies 'R Us baby blanket. ---
**Author:** ![Sticks\_and\_Scones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sticks_and_scones/32/16951_2.png) [@Sticks\_and\_Scones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sticks_and_Scones)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/47 "2010-10-05T13:55:24Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I think the problem is that artists have an over-inflated sense of the value of their own work. An artist’s work is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it and nothing more. > > That is actually more accurate than some of you may know. As a sculptor I can put days or months into a piece or knock it out in an afternoon of creativity. It all depends on materials, size, complexity and finish. So here is the conundrum. Let’s take two pieces as an example. > [HERE](http://www.leviathanfinearts.com/LFA/Welcome.html) (go to galleries, click on masks) is a link to some masques I’ve been doing this month. Some are more, some are less. Even the most simple ones take about two hours and 6-10 dollars in materials. The more complicated ones can be far more time consuming. Sculpting all those features etc, plus pain and many layers of lacquer all takes time. Now if I charged properly, each one would be quite expensive. Most likely starting at around 50-75 and running up into the hundreds for the complex ones. The problem is nobody will pay that for what they see as a fun piece of wearable art. Jewelry people will know what I’m talking about here. You have to fight against mass manufactured alternatives that will not be as cool, but they will be loads cheaper. > > So until you get the big break, or gallery show that garners you a following, **Dio** is right. That art is worth what they are willing to pay for it; and that is usually determined by their subjective pricing they’ve figured out from shopping similar items. It sucks, but if you want to sell you have be reasonable on your pricing, at least at first. Yeah, I’d have to agree with you here. I price my jewelry and other items reasonably and geared towards what the market will bear. For example there is another artist making similar items that runs in the same circles that I do. My work is, frankly, not as good as hers yet (she’s been doing this much longer than I have) and my work is priced a little less. Unfortunately when your craft has become your income, you have to balance your love of your work with financial concerns. Could I charge a higher asking price for my work? Absolutely. But in all likelihood, nobody will go home happy. People will tell me how beautiful my jewelry is and how creative I am, but they’re not going to be willing to take it home if the price isn’t right. Like I said, it’s a delicate balance between suffering for your art and suffering to make the house payment each month. I may not be making what I feel each piece is truly worth, but at least I’ll have had some enjoyment in the creation of it. ---
**Author:** ![Waxwinged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Waxwinged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waxwinged)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/48 "2010-10-05T14:00:42Z")
Ooh! A free troll doll. 😃 Just pitching in to say that, as a metalworker/painter, it’s rather difficult to make people realize the time and effort put into either. Furthermore, that’s already been said by people more literally gifted than I. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/49 "2010-10-05T14:03:24Z")
> [@Sticks\_and\_Scones](#): > > I may not be making what I feel each piece is truly worth, but at least I’ll have had some enjoyment in the creation of it. snip. This exactly. I’m working on getting into a prominent gallery show next month. (crosses fingers) We’ll see how it goes. If it does well, I might get enough work to make it my full time job instead of having to look for part time work. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/50 "2010-10-05T14:48:34Z")
Ive done work for nothing or next to nothing. I’ve played gigs for free, done studio work for free. I’ve given away songs for nothing but the credit on the CD. I don’t have the illusion that my work is so precious that I deserve to be showered with gold for it. The truth is that art is a cheap commodity, and that very few artists are actually all that marketable. Here’s something else, the amount of time you spend on something has no relevance to its marketability. All that matters is the finished product. The notion that you are entitled to more money if you spend more time on it is completely false. Art is not priced that way. It’s not an auto repair. The product is the product. The market doesn’t care how much time it took you. The market is what it is, and you are not being wronged if the market doesn’t pay you like you’re Picasso. Artists are a dime a dozen and they all think they’re geniuses (including me), but the truth is that very few really are good enough that the market is going to reward them. There’s always somebody else who can do exactly the same quality work. I know I’m going to be accused of threadshitting for having a contrary opinion, but tell me what I’m actually wrong about. By what metric are you appraising your own work? Why do you think your work is worth more than what the market says it’s worth? ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/51 "2010-10-05T15:01:00Z")
I’ve been doing stained glass for several years. I (literally) put blood, sweat and tears into my work. I’ve sold a lot of my work, rarely for what I think it’s worth. I usually charge material cost, and chalk up my time as my “hobby” If I didn’t, I’d be disappointed every time I sold something. I paint too. I’ve never sold a painting. We have no room left to store any more, so I’ve stopped. Most people don’t want Art. They want art, things that match their decor. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/52 "2010-10-05T15:02:11Z")
I’m a self-employed consultant. People who have decided to start using SAP hire some consulting firm, which calls some agencies, which hire people like me. Many agents have been trying to take advantage of the current crisis by hiring consultants to do two jobs for the price of less than one. Let’s say someone’s rates were 100Simoleons for one module (SAP is divided into parts called modules), he’d be offered 90Sims to handle two modules. I’ve actually hung up the phone on someone after saying “for that rate, this phone call is already over-cost.” Don’t get me started on the rates offered for translation work and the timing for it. “Highly-technical manual, 100K words, due 48 hours after we tell you you got it, 0.05USD/word” is not an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/53 "2010-10-05T15:03:08Z")
In the case I mentioned in the OP, my time was worth my time. A guy wanted me to spend three hours helping him out with something, and I’d rather have spent my night doing what I wanted to do. I charged what I thought was a fair price for my time. This thread is not about artists feeling entitled to money. It’s about others feeling entitled to an artist’s time and energy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/54 "2010-10-05T15:05:22Z")
Your time is worth whatever anybody is willing to pay for it. If your time is not as marketable as you would like it to be, you are free not to sell it. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/55 "2010-10-05T15:11:46Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > > [@tdn](#): > > > > She was approached by someone in her office that wanted a self-portrait … > > Sounds like a good deal: she simply points out that a self portrait is necessarily painted by the person it depicts, pockets the $25, and goes on about her business. I was thinking the same thing.😃 ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/56 "2010-10-05T15:15:41Z")
**Dio** , if you had originally said this: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ive done work for nothing or next to nothing. I’ve played gigs for free, done studio work for free. I’ve given away songs for nothing but the credit on the CD. I don’t have the illusion that my work is so precious that I deserve to be showered with gold for it. The truth is that art is a cheap commodity, and that very few artists are actually all that marketable. Here’s something else, the amount of time you spend on something has no relevance to its marketability. All that matters is the finished product. The notion that you are entitled to more money if you spend more time on it is completely false. Art is not priced that way. It’s not an auto repair. The product is the product. The market doesn’t care how much time it took you. The market is what it is, and you are not being wronged if the market doesn’t pay you like you’re Picasso. Artists are a dime a dozen and they all think they’re geniuses (including me), but the truth is that very few really are good enough that the market is going to reward them. There’s always somebody else who can do exactly the same quality work. I know I’m going to be accused of threadshitting for having a contrary opinion, but tell me what I’m actually wrong about. By what metric are you appraising your own work? Why do you think your work is worth more than what the market says it’s worth? instead of this: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the problem is that artists have an over-inflated sense of the value of their own work. An artist’s work is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it and nothing more. I wouldn’t be getting threadshitting reports. Please make an effort to spell out what you want to say instead of making drive-by remarks. It is not just your opinions that piss people off, it’s the way you present them. Thanks, **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/57 "2010-10-05T15:19:42Z")
Individuals aren’t a market, they are participants in one. One person expecting to get artistic effort for nothing doesn’t mean that the market has declared the value of the effort to be zero. It’s a fact that the amount of effort and skill involved in producing something do not dictate the price that people are willing to pay. For most buyers, it has some influence, but they have no obligation to make a calculation. That’s up to the artist or craftsman to decide whether it’s worth doing or not. And anyone who runs into someone who expects their effort for free is perfectly entitled to be bemused, offended, or whatever else they feel like feeling. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/58 "2010-10-05T15:21:02Z")
I have to agree that from the POV of the buyer, how long it takes to produce the whatever is irrelevant. Maybe you are the world’s most indecisive painter, and meditate before each brush stroke and agonize after it. Maybe you paint like a demon on speed when inspired. Maybe that painting was done in an afternoon or over a decade. The only question to me as the buy is, am I willing to pay the amount on the price tag to own in? (Well, that and, Can I afford it?) I agree it’s particularly hard on crafters vs. ‘traditional’ artists. Especially for items with utilitarian aspects. Is it ‘worth’ $150 for a pot rest with handpainted tiles when I can buy a functionally similar item for $5.95 at KMart? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/59 "2010-10-05T15:36:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the problem is that artists have an over-inflated sense of the value of their own work. An artist’s work is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it and nothing more. And how much is thread shit going for these days? (sorry, I couldn’t resist) ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046/60 "2010-10-05T15:40:53Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I think the problem is that artists have an over-inflated sense of the value of their own work. An artist’s work is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it and nothing more. > > And how much is thread shit going for these days? > > (sorry, I couldn’t resist) As a producer, by his own rules, he’s not qualified to say. That’s up to us who make up the market. I bid $0.00. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-and-others-do-people-want-your-services-for-too-cheap/556046.md?page=4)