# Artists who despise the audiences who love them **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580 "2008-05-01T07:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/81 "2008-05-02T16:15:25Z")
[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden] Does he really have this reputation? 😕 [/QUOTE] I’ve heard over and over again what a lousy live performer Dylan is. But the one time I saw him, about ten years ago, I thought he was great. One thing I’ve gathered from other fans’ accounts is that whatever it is that makes Dylan _Dylan_, it gets lost in big arenas. You have to see him up close. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/82 "2008-05-02T16:19:50Z")
> [@Shamozzle](#): > > What a bunch of morons. > > Yay! Look at the artists! They’re making a statement, man. So, like, let’s listen! > > Hey, everyone, you know what? I’m an artist too! > > I took a shit in a box and if you squint it kinda looks like John Wilkes Booth. Genius! > > And because I’m deep and tormented, I’ll be in the corner smoking Indonesian cigarettes and frowning while I read Derrida. > Those fucking poser clowns. Guess what, boys, you can’t “buy deep”. > Fuck this pisses me off. I’m glad you’re here to tell them what to do with their money, but they _did_ make a statement, and it wasn’t anywhere near as vague as some of you are making it out to be. In fact, they seem to have been quite successful, since you guys are _still_ all riled up by their destroying money that you’d rather have. > [@Barrett Bonden](#): > > Does he really have this reputation? Yep. I heard it from several coworkers who went to recent Dylan shows and were really pissed at how awful it was and how little he seemed to care. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/83 "2008-05-02T16:36:43Z")
Ryan Adams comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/84 "2008-05-02T16:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=Burton] Ryan Adams comes to mind. [/QUOTE] [Yeah, but who can blame him?](http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/summer%20of%2069%20jokes%20send%20adams%20into%20therapy) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/85 "2008-05-02T16:55:38Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] I do think Stephen King has a love/hate relationship with his fan base: Loves most of them, but really hates the crazies. [/QUOTE] Is he still pissed off at the English/creative writing teachers who failed to recognize his Talent? Here’s some enjoyable contempt for the fan base, courtesy of Spinal Tap: _We hit the stage, with rock and rage And do our best to earn the maximum wage. The lights are bullshit, the sound’s for the birds, Don’t know the music and we don’t know the words but still we’re Stinkin’ up the great outdoors Stinkin’ up the great outdoors Stinkin’ up the great outdoors And the kids don’t mind!_ ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/86 "2008-05-02T17:13:32Z")
Could an artist who despised their audience even be considered an artist? I don’t think so. [QUOTE=bubastis] And the guy, Greg Alexander? Of the New Radicals? They only had one hit (Don’t Let Go) because he hated performng live. Just couldn’t stand his audience. Hated the whole musician thing. [/QUOTE] Perfect example. Can that derivative, over-produced piece of pop fluff even be considered art? [QUOTE=Gatopescado] Crissy Hynde and Johnny Rotton both hated their fans. [/QUOTE] I doubt Crissy Hynde hates her larger audience, which includes other musicians and everyone who purchases her work. It wouldn’t surprise me, though, if she hates the dipshits that stand near the stage and scream “Brass in Pocket” at every single performance. As for Johnny Rotten, he absolutely should feel contempt for his audience. It really _was_ a swindle. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/87 "2008-05-02T17:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=Blank Slate] Could an artist who despised their audience even be considered an artist? I don’t think so… [/QUOTE] [John Cleese] Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please. [/JC] ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/88 "2008-05-02T17:43:51Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] [John Cleese] Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please. [/JC] [/QUOTE] An essential element of art is honesty. What of value, by any measure, could you create if you despised those who appreciated it? Not art. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/89 "2008-05-02T17:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=Blank Slate] An essential element of art is honesty. What of value, by any measure, could you create if you despised those who appreciated it? Not art. [/QUOTE] And if the despised people still appreciate it as art? What then? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/90 "2008-05-02T18:00:59Z")
[QUOTE=Blank Slate] An essential element of art is honesty. What of value, by any measure, could you create if you despised those who appreciated it? Not art. [/QUOTE] Sure you can, but that’s another argument. You can create art, but find your “fans” reactions inappropriate. It may be only a minority, but if it’s vocal enough, you won’t want to create are for that group. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/91 "2008-05-02T18:01:01Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] And if the despised people still appreciate it as art? What then? [/QUOTE] I doubt anyone considered an artist created anything worth being referred to as art with that attitude. It could happen after the fact, but that would cripple an artists ability to create. Whatever came next, in that case, is probably trash. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/92 "2008-05-02T18:02:45Z")
[QUOTE=Blank Slate] I doubt anyone considered an artist created anything worth being referred to as art with that attitude. It could happen after the fact, but that would cripple an artists ability to create. [/QUOTE] Why? Most artists create for themselves, not an audience. They appreciate an audience, but the first person they want to please is themselves. An artist who changes his art to the whims of an audience is hardly an artist. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/93 "2008-05-02T18:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] [Yeah, but who can blame him?](http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/summer%20of%2069%20jokes%20send%20adams%20into%20therapy) [/QUOTE] Thought his name was familiar. I suppose if I were a one-hit-wonder like him I’d get sick of people reminding me what a loser I am, too. Oh? That’s BRYAN Adams? (checking Wikipedia) And he had several hits, some of which didn’t suck for 80s Power Pop? Oh, you mean RYAN Adams, the whinger who can only wish he had Bryan Adams’ career. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/94 "2008-05-02T18:22:23Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] Since I haven’t and don’t intend ever to read that series, mind spoiling it all for me? What was the original ending, what was the “real” ending he felt badgered for, and what was the hubbub? Feel free to spoiler box it. TIA. [/QUOTE] I sent you a PM on this instead of spoiler-boxing it, just because I don’t want someone yelling at me over it even then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/95 "2008-05-02T18:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] I’m glad you’re here to tell them what to do with their money, but they _did_ make a statement, and it wasn’t anywhere near as vague as some of you are making it out to be. In fact, they seem to have been quite successful, since you guys are _still_ all riled up by their destroying money that you’d rather have. [/QUOTE] What’s the statement, though? Honest question. It’s not so much that I’d rather have it as that it’s mystifyingly wasteful. It’s like dropping a million dollars worth of food into the ocean as a performance art piece, trying to make a statement about our species’ obsession with “nourishment.” I’d rather watch GG Allin eat a turd. Sure it’s gross, but at least he’s not wasteful! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/96 "2008-05-02T18:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=Blank Slate] An essential element of art is honesty. [/QUOTE] Since when? Or, more to the point, says who? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/97 "2008-05-02T18:58:03Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] I’m glad you’re here to tell them what to do with their money, but they _did_ make a statement, and it wasn’t anywhere near as vague as some of you are making it out to be. In fact, they seem to have been quite successful, since you guys are _still_ all riled up by their destroying money that you’d rather have. [/QUOTE] If pissing people off is the measure of art, then I could write a racial slur on the side of my house in giant letters and call it art. But it wouldn’t be – at least it wouldn’t be _good_ art. I agree that art should make a statement or make people feel something – but making people feel angry with you is the easiest possible thing to make them feel, and the statement “People place too much value on money” is neither original, insightful, nor interesting. As an effort at “art”, burning a million dollars basically fails by any conceivable measure. As for the point about it being “their money”, what does that have to do with anything? Is anyone here arguing that they don’t have a legal right to destroy their money? (Actually, they might not – Isn’t there some law against intentionally defacing or destroying currency? – but my point is that’s not what anyone was talking about.) Whether it’s something they _should_ do is a wholly separate question. I’d say that destroying a million dollars is shamefully, despicably wasteful. If they didn’t want that money, they could have used it to do some good in the world, and probably made a more intelligent artistic statement in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/98 "2008-05-02T20:23:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] I’m glad you’re here to tell them what to do with their money, but they _did_ make a statement, and it wasn’t anywhere near as vague as some of you are making it out to be. In fact, they seem to have been quite successful, since you guys are _still_ all riled up by their destroying money that you’d rather have. [/QUOTE] You’re damn straight I’m going to tell them what _not_ to do with their money in this case. You better believe it. And I’m not “still” riled up, I just found out about it. It’s indulgent crap, plain and simple. Are all social sensibilities dismissed in the name of art? Can I smack kittens into walls because the blood patterns are compelling to me? Yea, it’s art. Bad, stupid, indulgent art. They are idiots. Oh, and, surprise surprise: They [regret](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Quid) it now! How about that! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/99 "2008-05-02T20:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] Are all social sensibilities dismissed in the name of art? Can I smack kittens into walls because the blood patterns are compelling to me? [/QUOTE] People have been asking questions like that for ages, including as recently as a few days ago on this board. Do you think your rhetorical example settles it? You can’t tell me it’s not provocative, _I_ think it’s interesting, and it didn’t hurt anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580/100 "2008-05-02T21:11:37Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] People have been asking questions like that for ages, including as recently as a few days ago on this board. Do you think your rhetorical example settles it? You can’t tell me it’s not provocative, _I_ think it’s interesting, and it didn’t hurt anybody. [/QUOTE] Of course I don’t think it settles it. It was a question, after all, rhetorical or not. And I never suggested it wasn’t provocative. I don’t think it’s as noteworthy that it didn’t hurt anyone as compared to the idea that the money could have\* helped\* many people. As someone pointed out earlier, it’s really no different than dropping a million dollars worth of food in the ocean. It was an astronomically wasteful and deplorable act. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/artists-who-despise-the-audiences-who-love-them/447580.md?page=6)