# As a Centrist - This is where the far left loses me **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 2, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917 "2020-06-02T12:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/121 "2020-06-04T21:00:50Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think this post really nails down why it is clear that the “All lives matter” chant is entirely posturing. If the people who chanted this… Nobody is chanting it. They are saying it, because they do not perceive the same problem that BLM and white liberals do. > [@](#): > > There is nothing stopping the creation of a “stop police violence” group that concentrates primarily in rural states, Sure there is. Rural states are conservative, and conservatives are reflexively biased in favor of the police. If you tell them the cops shot someone, white or black, they’re going to assume it was probably justified. Any broad, successful, movement for policing reform is going to have to get support from the left. Unfortunately, the white working-class are no longer a constituency of the left, and they don’t seem intent on trying to win them back. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/122 "2020-06-04T21:11:43Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > And this was my whole point in my OP. I still cannot read that tweet and think that his entire career SHOULD be left in ruin. Two years ago unarmed black Sacramento resident Stephon Clark was shot and killed by police in his grandmother’s backyard, and two Kings games were delayed by demonstrations at the arena. The team took some actions to communicate with the community and make some significant engagements with the local Black Lives Matter organization. The Kings and Celtics players wore warm up shirts with Stephon Clark’s name on it in tribute. Boogie Cousins paid for the funeral expenses. There’s no excuse for the team announcer being unfamiliar with the meaning of All Lives Matter. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/123 "2020-06-04T21:32:42Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > And this was my whole point in my OP. I still cannot read that tweet and think that his entire career SHOULD be left in ruin. > > In hindsight, after reading more about the whole relationship with Napear and Cousins, it is clear he was baited. And while his response CAN be translated into a covert racist comment, my own personal (and recent) discovery in this thread suggests the man was likely guilty of being tone deaf at worst. So, what about the black folks who realize the message is exclusionary and say all lives matter? Should their lives be ruined by the internet mob? Or should people respect basic freedoms and realize that not all phrase or words mean the exact same thing to everybody in every context? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/124 "2020-06-04T21:51:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So, what about the black folks who realize the message is exclusionary and say all lives matter? Cite? Are there actually some black folks who feel it’s important to resist explicitly agreeing with the statement _“Black Lives Matter”_, the way so many white folks seem to? I haven’t seen any instances of that. As for “saying all lives matter”, AFAICT all the BLM-supporting black folks are fully in agreement with the principle that all lives matter (which is, after all, the foundation of the claim _“Black Lives Matter”_ in the first place). What they’re objecting to is simply the insistence of so many white folks on stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the validity of the more specific claim that black lives matter. Here is a [handy little schematic](https://twitter.com/anaelramiro/status/1268559170061635584/photo/1) that a BLM activist made to help explain the nuances of the issue. I’ll try to reproduce the gist of it in the following quote. > [@](#): > > WE said -\> BLACK LIVES MATTER > > NEVER said -\> ONLY BLACK LIVES MATTER > > WE know -\> ALL LIVES MATTER > > WE just need YOUR HELP with #BLACKLIVESMATTER > > for BLACK LIVES are in DANGER There, **octopus** , does that help clear things up for you? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/125 "2020-06-04T22:48:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cite? Are there actually some black folks who feel it’s important to resist explicitly agreeing with the statement _“Black Lives Matter”_, the way so many white folks seem to? I haven’t seen any instances of that. > > As for “saying all lives matter”, AFAICT all the BLM-supporting black folks are fully in agreement with the principle that all lives matter (which is, after all, the foundation of the claim _“Black Lives Matter”_ in the first place). What they’re objecting to is simply the insistence of so many white folks on stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the validity of the more specific claim that black lives matter. > > Here is a [handy little schematic](https://twitter.com/anaelramiro/status/1268559170061635584/photo/1) that a BLM activist made to help explain the nuances of the issue. I’ll try to reproduce the gist of it in the following quote. > > There, **octopus** , does that help clear things up for you? Many actually. Just go to YouTube and you’ll see plenty. And the funny thing is the comment section quite often contains better debate than what we find in the echo chamber. If you can’t find a single one you just aren’t looking. Many of the black people who address topics such as racism, language, etc. show far more nuance than their unelected spokespeople here and in other circles where critical thought is valued less than virtue signaling. And regarding that schematic. That’s actually very well said. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/126 "2020-06-04T22:58:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Many actually. Just go to YouTube and you’ll see plenty. […] If you can’t find a single one you just aren’t looking. Well, then it should be easy for you to find the requested cite, right? I mean, that’s how things work here in the debate forums: you make a factual claim, you’re asked for a cite, you provide a cite. If you don’t happen to have a cite that doesn’t automatically mean your claim is necessarily wrong, but it’s still on you to provide an actual cite if you’re claiming that cites exist. You don’t get to offload that task on me and then declare that if I don’t find your cite for you it’s _my_ fault. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/127 "2020-06-04T23:05:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, then it should be easy for you to find the requested cite, right? I mean, that’s how things work here in the debate forums: you make a factual claim, you’re asked for a cite, you provide a cite. > > If you don’t happen to have a cite that doesn’t automatically mean your claim is necessarily wrong, but it’s still on you to provide an actual cite if you’re claiming that cites exist. You don’t get to offload that task on me and then declare that if I don’t find your cite for you it’s _my_ fault. I just don’t care to do so. What’s the point of finding a trivial anecdote? To prove that it exists? If you don’t believe me then you don’t. That’s perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/128 "2020-06-04T23:10:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Here is a [handy little schematic](https://twitter.com/anaelramiro/status/1268559170061635584/photo/1) that a BLM activist made to help explain the nuances of the issue. I’ll try to reproduce the gist of it in the following quote. I saw another today (can’t find it right now though after a quick search) that basically went like this. - Bob goes to dinner with some people. - Everyone at the table is served food except Bob. - Bob says, “Hey, I don’t have any food.” - The rest respond, “Stop complaining, we all deserve food.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/129 "2020-06-04T23:42:09Z")
To me it seems more like this: – Bob goes to dinner with some people – Everyone at the table is served food except Bob. – Bob says “Hey, I don’t have any food”. – Charles says “Yeah, I guess that’s right. Hey Dave, you were the organizer of this party and said you’d feed everyone and even gathered $20 from everyone to pay for it. What’s up?” – Dave says “Sorry, man, there just wasn’t enough food for everyone.” – Charles says “of course there was, you should give him some food. I’d give you some of mine but I’ve already taken bites of everything.” – Dave says “this is my house, I can do what I want!” – Bob says “I should get my money back, and never invite me to this again!” – Eunice starts to join them in a much more animated fashion, jumping up and down, yelling about how Bob needs food to eat. – Dave is frightened and calls the police – Bob continues to calmly ask for his money back – Eunice dumps her drink on Charles, ruining his $150 suit. – Charles says “what did you do THAT for? I wasn’t the one who didn’t give Bob any food!” – Fred jumps in “no one should have a drink dumped on them, but if you didn’t get fed, wouldn’t you dump your drink on someone?” – Eunice escalates to trashing the place. – The police arrive and arrest Bob. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/130 "2020-06-04T23:44:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I saw another today (can’t find it right now though after a quick search) that basically went like this. > > - Bob goes to dinner with some people. > - Everyone at the table is served food except Bob. > - Bob says, “Hey, I don’t have any food.” > - The rest respond, “Stop complaining, we all deserve food.” But it’s the _“stop complaining”_ that’s doing all the work, there. If Bob says _“Hey, I don’t have any food,”_ and the rest of them put food on his plate — while agreeing that they all deserve food — then there’s no problem. But if they instead put no food on his plate, despite replying that Bob _does_ deserve food, then there _would_ be a problem. Bob’s concern is, presumably, whether you’re going to put food on his plate; if you are, then what difference does mentioning the other folks at the table make? And if you’re not, then what difference does it make if you only mention Bob? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/131 "2020-06-05T00:01:13Z")
The meme I’ve seen enacted in a few different versions is this: **Person 1:** Hey, what are you yelling about over there? **Person 2:** My house is on fire! Help! Fire! Help! **Person 1:** What about my house? **Person 2:** What? What do you mean? **Person 1:** Isn’t my house important too? **Person 2:** What? You mean your house is on fire? Help! Fire! **Person 1:** No, but that doesn’t mean my house isn’t important! **Person 2:** Huh? I never said your house isn’t importan— **Person 1:** Look, all houses matter, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/132 "2020-06-05T00:01:28Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Consider how the gay community dealt with AIDS. Gay men are \<2% of the population, but have always been the large majority of AIDS cases. And yet, on a per-patient or per-death basis, AIDS research is far better funded than things like cancer or heart disease or diabetes, and has been since the early 90s. > > That’s a pretty amazing achievement for gay community to achieve in this supposedly homophobic country. How did they do it? Well, we certainly didn’t do it by listening to people preaching the sort of respectability politics you’re advocating here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/133 "2020-06-05T00:11:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The meme I’ve seen enacted in a few different versions is this: > > **Person 1:** Hey, what are you yelling about over there? > **Person 2:** My house is on fire! Help! Fire! Help! > **Person 1:** What about my house? > **Person 2:** What? What do you mean? > **Person 1:** Isn’t my house important too? > **Person 2:** What? You mean your house is on fire? Help! Fire! > **Person 1:** No, but that doesn’t mean my house isn’t important! > **Person 2:** Huh? I never said your house isn’t importan— > **Person 1:** Look, all houses matter, okay? But — again — what seems to be doing all the work in that analogy is the bit where you’re _not putting out the fire_. If my house is on fire, and folks put out the fire while noting that, hey, they would’ve done the same for my neighbors, since all houses matter? Well, okay, then! And if my house is on fire, and they _don’t_ put out the fire, then: what do I care whether they (a) say my house matters, and (b) mention no other houses? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/134 "2020-06-05T00:55:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But — again — what seems to be doing all the work in that analogy is the bit where you’re _not putting out the fire_. Yeah, I think the implication is that the _“what about my house? all houses matter!”_ response reveals that Person 1 **doesn’t really care** that Person 2’s house is on fire. Or at the very least, that the demand to temporarily prioritize Person 2’s house (while not immediately focusing on Person 1’s house also) makes Person 1 so uncomfortable that they have to demand explicit acknowledgement for their own house before they can manage to do anything about Person 2’s house being on fucking fire and all. I mean, yeah, sure, in a situation of normal human decency Person 1 sees Person 2 yelling _“Help! Fire!”_ because their house is on fire, and immediately joins in with their own cries of _“Fire! Help! Help! Person 2’s house is on fire!”_. But race relations in America are radically distorted by a very long-term deficit of normal human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/135 "2020-06-05T00:57:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’d rather have their votes at every level of governance supporting the needed systemic and structural changes. You’re a funny guy. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But I strongly disagree with your position that their discomfort with unqualifiedly asserting the basic value of black people ought to be coddled or pandered to with special reassurances and deferential affirmations of their own importance. Nor do I believe your unsupported assertion that such coddling will really accomplish anything in the way of making them reliable “allies” of the BLM movement. > > Face it: **Any kind of movement affirming the basic rights and value of black people in the US is going to make a great many white people feel vaguely distressed and uncomfortable, and there will always be some nitpicking criticism that they can seize on to account for their feelings of distress and discomfort.** I don’t think it will ultimately help them, the BLM cause, or anybody else to be constantly trying to accommodate that reaction with incessant soothing and tweaking of the language of solidarity. > > **In the last analysis, if a white person is incapable of unqualifiedly affirming that _“Black Lives Matter”_, it’s most likely not the mere wording of the slogan that is really bothering them.** Right. No wording would really appease them. Just like no form of peaceful protest (like kneeling during the national anthem) would appease them. Continuing trying to appease them won’t work. When has it ever? You’re just playing their game and not winning over the winnable. And whitesplaining to them what’s wrong with their slogans and protests sure sounds pretty shitty. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/136 "2020-06-05T01:13:18Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Right. No wording would really appease them. Just like no form of peaceful protest (like kneeling during the national anthem) would appease them. Continuing trying to appease them won’t work. When has it ever? You’re just playing their game and not winning over the winnable. And whitesplaining to them what’s wrong with their slogans and protests sure sounds pretty shitty. Just to be clear: I have no problem with people saying that black lives matter; it’s just that I also have no problem with people saying that all lives matter. After all, I have no problem figuring that the former were also implying the latter, and that the latter were also implying the former; and, as far as I can tell, I’m in no hurry to tell either of ‘em that anything is wrong with their respective slogans. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/137 "2020-06-05T02:48:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just to be clear: I have no problem with people saying that black lives matter; it’s just that I also have no problem with people saying that all lives matter. After all, I have no problem figuring that the former were also implying the latter, and that the latter were also implying the former; and, as far as I can tell, I’m in no hurry to tell either of ‘em that anything is wrong with their respective slogans. I do not think anyone disagrees with someone, anyone, saying, “All lives matter.” Because duh. When someone is saying, “Black lives matter,” they are NOT saying ONLY black lives matter. They still, 100% agree that ALL lives matter. They are noting that black people are dying at a much higher rate than all the other people and maybe we need to pay attention to that. So, when you say, “But, but…ALL lives matter!” you are explicitly deflecting from the issue at hand. When Bob says he has no food he is not saying no one else deserves food. He is saying there is an inequity that needs addressing. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/138 "2020-06-05T03:44:03Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > You make it sound like BLM are the ones rioting It’s a fair point; there are several amusing videos out there of BLM protesters beating up the Antifa who showed up to cause mayhem, and these give one hope. But the rioting and looting did happen. And maybe they were caught off guard the first night or two, but even after three and four days, way too many progressives (whether or not they were formally affiliated with BLM), instead of saying very loudly that they were horrified by the violence, they hated antifa’s guts, etc., they went on TV and talked about how this was justified, understandable and all the rest. Whether you think that’s true is irrelevant; politics isn’t about truth, it’s about what people can be convinced of. What is relevant is that you’re never gonna convince middle-class people in the suburbs that setting fire to churches and looting small businesses are legit protest tactics. Those are the people whose support BLM needs in order to win, and this week drove them away. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/139 "2020-06-05T03:49:24Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > You’re a funny guy … I take it from this … meaty … response that you believe the idea of expanding the breadth of support willing to vote for those who prioritize the needed structural and systemic changes at all levels is a joke. Personally I feel that change will only happen with such expansion of support. And that such expansion is possible, not by demonizing everyone who questions or even misinterprets, but by encouraging empathy by way of demonstrating it. The belief that all who react positively to hearing “All lives matter.” are racist and unreachable is defeatist. It defines the necessary majority of Americans as unreachable racists. If so don’t bother. I see them differently. I get that that you don’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917/140 "2020-06-05T03:54:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > But the rioting and looting did happen. And maybe they were caught off guard the first night or two, but even after three and four days, way too many progressives (whether or not they were formally affiliated with BLM), instead of saying very loudly that they were horrified by the violence, they hated antifa’s guts, etc., they went on TV and talked about how this was justified, understandable and all the rest. How many people were protesting? How many people did you see being interviewed? What are the percentages, at a rough guess, of spokespeople to protesters? Did any of those people represent any group formally? Were any practiced in being interviewed or were they Joe/Jane Schmo caught up in the moment? Have you ever seen a talk show host ask people on the street and everyone they ask seems an idiot getting easy questions wrong? Put another way, do you understand editing for TV? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-centrist-this-is-where-the-far-left-loses-me/854917.md?page=8)