# As a former skinhead and KKK member... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785 "2003-06-27T16:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/1 "2003-06-27T16:16:23Z")
… is there any hope for change? Not me, I hasten to add. But the thread about the death of Strom Thurmond contained a number of gleeful reactions to his death. Some were predicated on positions he arguably held until he died; I’m not here to debate those. But some were predicated on the idea that it was fine to rejoice in Mr. Thurmond’s death because he was a segregationist in 1948. Other posters noted, correctly, that Mr. Thurmond had repudiated those views and gone on to be, if not a model of a civil rights warrior, arguably a proponent thereof, and certainly not a racial bigot. My question is not about Mr. Thurmond specifically, but about anyone who once held, and acted on, deeply bigoted racial views. If such a person subsequently repudiates those views, is there any hope of his being viewed as a decent sort? Or will he forever be tarred with his earlier views? Is it even possible to sincerely believe in the inferiority of blacks as an adult and then equally sincerely have a change of heart? Or is the earlier view always there beneath the surface? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/2 "2003-06-27T16:48:58Z")
I think a good deal of racists are ignorant and can be “cured”. Especially true for those who do not even know people from the other “race”. E.g. Racist views against blacks in Austria. Racist views against Arabs in the US. “race” is an ill-defined concept anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/3 "2003-06-27T16:51:21Z")
_Can_ his reputation be able to be rehabilitated? Or _should_ his reputation be able to be rehabilitated? I know people who insist that George Wallace’s actions in the early 1960s makes him unforgiveable, but I would submit that he successfully changed his actions to justfy a kinder view of his later career. (Arguments about whether he “only” did this in the face of increasing black voter registration are (even if true) irrelevant. As governor, he took specific actions to promote the welfare of all citizens, regardless of race.) I have rather more animus against Thurmond regarding his Senate votes on a number of other national issues, so I am unlikely to view him very favorably, but if, indeed, he avoided direct opposition to Civil Rights over the last couple of decades (leaving aside the differences of opinions regarding issues such as Affirmative Action), then I don’t think he should be despised, now, for actions dating back 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Forty-Six\_Two](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@Forty-Six\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forty-Six_Two)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/4 "2003-06-27T16:52:15Z")
In all fairness, one needs to see the situation through the lens of the time period we’re talking about. The idea of segregationism today is nauseating to any person with half a brain, but in '48, America was struggling with exactly what to “do” with African-Americans. For Thurmond to grow with the times and understand human nature as time went on does not absolve him of his earlier actions, but it also shouldn’t be discounted entirely. Often, the best proponents of a cause have defected from the opposite side of the argument. At any rate, I’m not about to dance on his grave. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/5 "2003-06-27T16:58:45Z")
Thurmond never repudiated his segregationist past. As late as 1998 he said he had no regrets and still thought the Dixiecrats were right. [Cite](http://slate.msn.com/id/2075662/) He gave an interview to > [@](#): > > Joseph Stroud of the _Charlotte Observer_ in July 1998 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of his presidential bid on the segregationist Dixiecrat ticket. Asked if he wanted to apologize, Thurmond said, “I don’t have anything to apologize for,” and “I don’t have any regrets.” **Asked if he thought the Dixiecrats were right, Thurmond said, "Yes, I do."** > > [bolding mine] Thanks to **Sterra** for first quoting this in the Pit A segregationist to the end. Now as to whether some_else_ can be rehabilitated, I think one would have to take extraordinary steps to prove that change of heart. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/6 "2003-06-27T18:16:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > My question is not about Mr. Thurmond specifically, but about anyone who once held, and acted on, deeply bigoted racial views. If such a person subsequently repudiates those views, is there any hope of his being viewed as a decent sort? Or will he forever be tarred with his earlier views? I think it depends on the type of “penance” involved. If Strom simply said, “Hey, I was wrong about the blacks, they aren’t inferior, my bad,” it wouldn’t carry as much weight as if he donated vast amounts of money to the NAACP and did charity work with impoverished black kids. As the old saw goes, “actions speak louder than words.” > [@](#): > > Is it even possible to sincerely believe in the inferiority of blacks as an adult and then equally sincerely have a change of heart? Or is the earlier view always there beneath the surface? As long as one is a human being, capable of making decisions of one’s own free will, and willing to learn and adapt to the changing world, anything is possible. To say otherwise would be to admit that one is nothing but a creature, driven by base instincts beyond his control. ---
**Author:** ![hilltopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hilltopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hilltopper)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/7 "2003-06-27T19:20:43Z")
Since it is impossible to crawl around in someone’s soul, it is impossible to know if someone has truly _changed_. I think you have a better shot at figuring how a family member, best friend, or spouse truly feels than a public figure…let alone a politician. A good friend of mine grew up in small town Pacific Northwest. Had never even see a black person, let alone developed any kind of prejudice. He got a job in Washington DC and upon exposure to the blacks there and the attitudes of some of his co-workers and friends sort of _became_ prejudice. He had a couple of unfortunate incidents early that tainted his opinion. As time went by, he gained more exposure and experience and flip flopped back and is now very much the opposite of prejudice. I am convinced he completely changed. Can it happen? Yes. Can we (the public) ever really know if Strom Thurman truly changed? No. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/8 "2003-06-27T19:56:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*My question is not about Mr. Thurmond specifically, but about anyone who once held, and acted on, deeply bigoted racial views. If such a person subsequently repudiates those views, is there any hope of his being viewed as a decent sort? Or will he forever be tarred with his earlier views? Is it even possible to sincerely believe in the inferiority of blacks as an adult and then equally sincerely have a change of heart? Or is the earlier view always there beneath the surface? \*\* It all depends. If he remained a Democrat, like Lester Maddox and Robert Byrd, then he can be forgiven for his earlier racist views. If he switched to Republican, then he’s tarred forever. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/9 "2003-06-27T20:09:47Z")
Bullshit, **december**. Byrd explicitly renounced his past. He has said that joining the KKK was the worst mistake of his life. See my link above. And WTF are you talking about with Maddox? Did you see the _Atlanta Journal-Constitution_ headline yesterday? > [@](#): > > LESTER MADDOX: 1915 - 2003: Last segregationist governor dies > Contradictory character defied change, labels ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/10 "2003-06-27T20:49:36Z")
I was thinking about this very question the other day, while reading comments made by Robert Byrd about the Bush administration’s handling of the whole Iraq problem. I strongly support Byrd’s position on this issue, and on many others. He has been one of the few Democrats willing to stand up to the Bush administration, and many of his speeches over the past year or so have been laudable, in my opinion. I know he has renounced his KKK membership on many occasions, but the way in which he did this sometimes seemed to portray the whole experience as a youthful indiscretion and a political liability, rather than as something morally reprehensible. And his use of the term “white nigger” a few years back shows, at the very least, a certain insensitivity to certain aspects of racial epithets in the United States. I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on the issue, but i concede that this may be partly because i’m so supportive of many of his current positions. By the same token, i think that Thurmond probably improved over the years, but that his constant refusal to admit that the Dixiecrats were wrong or that he had been mistaken must certainly count against him. And i’m not quite as charitable as **tom** is, in that i don’t think simply avoiding “direct opposition to civil rights” is enough to balance his earlier actions and cancel out people’s dislike for him. But, again like **tom** , my dislike of Thurmond’s more recent political history may be clouding my view. One thing is for certain–we can only judge these people based on our own iinterpretations of their words and actions. As some people have noted, we can never get inside their heads to find out if they truly have changed. [personal story] When i was growing up in Australia, i went to a predominantly anglo school in a part of Sydney that has many immigrants from Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and the Mediterranean. My friends and i used to constantly refer to these immigrant groups as “wogs” (Mediterraneans and Middle-Easterners) and “slope-heads” (Asians). We also used to refer to Australian Aborigines as “coons” and “boongs.” I began to realize after i left school how wrong that was, and i changed my ways. I’m not proud of my earlier behaviour, but there’s nothing i can do to take it back. And, while i know that i’ve changed inside, other people can’t see inside my brain to confirm this; they can only judge me based on my words and actions. [/personal story] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/11 "2003-06-27T20:57:35Z")
> [@](#): > > If he remained a Democrat, like Lester Maddox and Robert Byrd, then he can be forgiven for his earlier racist views. If he switched to Republican, then he’s tarred forever. Did you post just to include this whiny lie? Every single story on Maddox made a point of recounting his segregationist history. Even the ones who talked about his even-handed treatment of people once he actually got into the governor’s mansion still recounted his axe-handle promotions. The clear difference on how people were treated in the press seems to be based on whether or not they clearly repudiated their earlier stances (Wallace, Byrd, Hollings) or whether they repeated that they were right the first time, Thurmond. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/12 "2003-06-27T20:57:43Z")
Am I happy that Strom is dead. No. But would I trust him enough as a politician to vote for him? Hell no. > [@](#): > > If such a person subsequently repudiates those views, is there any hope of his being viewed as a decent sort? I think they can be viewed as decent if they make it clear that their change in belief is genuine and not simply a political disguise. Don’t know about anyone else, but for me it takes a lot of convincing that someone who was once a staunch segregationist–caught on tape extolling the virtues of white supremacy and all its black lynching glory–has completely chucked that belief system and picked up an all-embracing philosophy. A man once convicted of child molestion may have truly changed his ways, and I may trust that man to do a lot of things. I may even consider him a decent, beautiful person. But will I want him babysitting my kids? Mmmm, can’t say that I would, no matter how strongly he says he’s changed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/13 "2003-06-27T21:06:38Z")
Of course I think it’s possible to grow and change as a person and to come to an epiphany about certain views. I certainly don’t think the same way now that I did when I was twenty. The question isn’t can a person change, but did _Thurmond_ change. I can’t really see compelling evidence that his change of heart was really motivated by anything other than political expediency. Would he have moderated his views if he had _won_ with his Dixiecrat campaign? If he had been successful in maintaining segregation would he still have seen the light in the 70’s? Would he have separated himself from those views if it would have _hurt_ him politically? I’m not convinced that he would have but I’m not ready to state categorically that he wouldn’t have either. I’ll just say that I’m skeptical about the sincerity of Strom’s conversion but since I can’t know his heart I’ll just refrain from judgement. I suspect that he probably did change the way he thought to some degree but I doubt that he ever really exorcised his ingrained bigotry, at least not completely. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/14 "2003-06-27T21:11:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Did you post just to include this whiny lie? Every single story on Maddox made a point of recounting his segregationist history. Even the ones who talked about his even-handed treatment of people once he actually got into the governor’s mansion still recounted his axe-handle promotions. > > The clear difference on how people were treated in the press seems to be based on whether or not they clearly repudiated their earlier stances (Wallace, Byrd, Hollings) or whether they repeated that they were right the first time, Thurmond. \*\* Sorry, Tom, but that won’t wash. I saw the eulogies for J. William Fulbright, some delivered by his protege, Bill Clinton. There has never been a more vile racist in the Senate than Fulbright (quite a few AS bad, none worse). But you’d never have guessed that from the fawning press he received upon his death. He was a good liberal Democrat on all other issues, so his racism was ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/15 "2003-06-27T21:58:17Z")
slight hi-jack… > [@](#): > > …it wouldn’t carry as much weight as if he donated vast amounts of money to the NAACP How would donating to the NAACP make you less of a racist? I ask simply because I will never donate money to any chairty that excludes others based on race. I give my money and time to chairties that help everyone no matter their ethnic, social, or economic backgrounds. I hope that doesnt make me a racist! ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/16 "2003-06-27T23:25:39Z")
Thurmond’s transformation was forced by society. If the civil rights movement had died out or stalled for awhile, he would have stayed a Dixiecrat much longer. I feel /slightly/ better about Byrd as he has indeed condemned his own actions - but racism is one of those things that hangs around you like a cloud even after you’ve shaken it off. I recognize my own bias as I like his speechmaking style and general political viewpoint - but there is still undoubtably a residual stain on his character. Eh. Some people should be remembered for who they used to be, and others for what they came to be. ---
**Author:** ![Bandanaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@Bandanaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bandanaman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/17 "2003-06-27T23:44:11Z")
The problem is, is you’re comparing politicians with real people. Politicians will do whatever is in their best interest. Real people, do, but rarely, change their views about what they’ve been taught? or subjected too during their formulative years. I had a friend in high school who was a drug dealer, hated n\*\*\*\*\*s, but I saw him a few years later, after he’d found “the lord”, and I genuinely believed he’d changed his ways. Deep down in his heart, though, I couldn’t say for sure. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/18 "2003-06-28T01:03:48Z")
Racism is 1 half ignorance and 1 half hate. If you can cure people of their ignorance then you are half way there. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/19 "2003-06-28T02:51:07Z")
FWIW, the NAACP doesn’t exclude whites. In its early history, the organization recieved a lot of funding from Northern white liberals with lifetime memberships. Not sure if this is true today. WRT Robert Byrd, black Democrats have usually overlooked his former KKK membership and resistance to civil rights legislation because he consistently votes with black Dems on economic and social service issues. I don’t know if the same is true for Fulbright, but I suspect so. In answer to the OP, of course, individuals can undergo drastic transformations. The best examples are cult members who break free of the mind control and turn their backs on the cults. Still, these transformations are rare, and quite difficult. They can involve alienating one’s family, friends, and community. I should also note that Thurmond’s racism, though wrong morally and pragmatically, was perfectly understandable. According to the philosopher Eric Hoeffer, in _The True Believer_, if you abuse a person, you must of necessity hate him. Otherwise you open the way for self-contempt. Thurman’s state and its people were essentially built on the large scale abuse of black Americans, so it’s not surprising that he and the majority of white voters clung to Jim Crow. Ending Jim Crow seemed like a perfectly normal, socially beneficial goal when seen from a Northern POV, especially in light of American ideals about the equality of men before the law. Actually, ending Jim Crow was a radical transformation of Southern society. Two groups of people who had traditionally been the bitterest of enemies for hundreds of years were expected to suddenly get along peacefully as equals in the same society. Few nations have ever attempted such a transformation, and fewer still have pulled it off so successfully. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785/20 "2003-06-28T02:57:21Z")
> [@](#): > > He was a good liberal Democrat on all other issues, so his racism was ignored. I will concede that Fulbright seems to have gotten a pass. Whether that was because he was “good” Democrat or because most people remember him only for his interest in foreign affairs, I don’t know. However, **december** ’s one-trick-pony response is not supported by the treatment of Maddox (and even Wallace was continually noted for his original stance, despite spending over 20 years working against that earlier position). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-former-skinhead-and-kkk-member/184785.md?page=2)