# As a liberal Obama voter I won't support an anti-trade, anti-TPP "progressive" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 30, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313 "2015-03-30T01:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/21 "2015-03-31T23:54:18Z")
The secrecy is due to the myriad of business special interests. I read that one Japanese import tariff would be reduced from 14% to 2%. In a true “free trade” agreement all tariffs would disappear. Since some businesses are more important than others none are equal. For instance we don’t have import tariffs on memory but Japan has(had) a high tariff on Micron products. Japan protects its memory business as vital (it used to be NEC when I was active in chips). The big deal about this FTA is in Intellectual Property where we in the US are routinely robbed of software, entertainment, and pharma. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/22 "2015-04-01T01:43:26Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > For the record I will not support a protectionist/anti-trader even if it means I have to vote for the dreaded Republican Party. > > Is this an important issue to others? Is it an on-line argument for the most part? Would this issue matter to you? Why do you assume that being against the TPP or any specific free trade agreement is a “protectionist/anti-trade” reason? The biggest problem that people have with what’s going on with things like the TPP is that they seek to restrict governments—and the people who elect those governments—from enacting laws in the public interest, be they labor/employment laws, public health laws, competition laws, environmental laws, consumer protection laws, and other things, like the subsidization of culturally important activities, like films or certain kinds of agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/23 "2015-04-01T07:01:27Z")
Yeah, Linden, it sounds like your definition of ‘free trade’ is so expansive that you won’t vote for either a small-d democrat or an environmentalist. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/24 "2015-04-01T11:18:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why do you assume that being against the TPP or any specific free trade agreement is a “protectionist/anti-trade” reason? > > The biggest problem that people have with what’s going on with things like the TPP is that they seek to restrict governments—and the people who elect those governments—from enacting laws in the public interest, be they labor/employment laws, public health laws, competition laws, environmental laws, consumer protection laws, and other things, like the subsidization of culturally important activities, like films or certain kinds of agriculture. And how does a climate change treaty not prevent countries from enacting laws in the public interest? ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/25 "2015-04-01T14:27:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The biggest problem that people have with what’s going on with things like the TPP is that they seek to restrict governments—and the people who elect those governments—from enacting laws in the public interest, be they labor/employment laws, public health laws, competition laws, environmental laws, consumer protection laws, and other things, like the subsidization of culturally important activities, like films or certain kinds of agriculture. How has NAFTA prevented the USA from such? We just passed a comprehensive Food Safety Act in 2011. > **[FDA Food Safety Modernization Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDA_Food_Safety_Modernization_Act)** > > The Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) was signed into law by President Barack Obama on January 4, 2011. The FSMA has given the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) new authority to regulate the way foods are grown, harvested and processed. The law grants the FDA a number of new powers, including mandatory recall authority, which the agency had sought for many years. The FSMA requires the FDA to undertake more than a dozen rulemakings and issue at least 10 guidance documents, as well as a host... ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/26 "2015-04-01T14:29:34Z")
I’d have to see an example myself of a legitimate government purpose thwarted by a trade treaty. If all these treaties do is prevent uncompensated expropriations, that’s a plus. That’s just rule of law, which should be standard, otherwise there’s no value in a treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/27 "2015-04-01T14:59:03Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > How has NAFTA prevented the USA from such? > > We just passed a comprehensive Food Safety Act in 2011. > > [FDA Food Safety Modernization Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDA_Food_Safety_Modernization_Act) Did I claim that Nafta has done so? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/28 "2015-04-02T01:44:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > … and other things, like the subsidization of culturally important activities, like films or certain kinds of agriculture. It seems like if you support subsidizing films or agriculture, or whatever, you don’t support free trade, or at least not of those goods. That’s protectionist by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/29 "2015-04-02T01:59:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems like if you support subsidizing films or agriculture, or whatever, you don’t support free trade, or at least not of those goods. That’s protectionist by definition. I think it’s perfectly valid for the French or Canadian government, for example, to subsidize French or Canadian-origin films. I also think it’s perfectly valid for the French government to subsidize the raising of pigs for a certain kind of pork that might otherwise be impossible, but is an important component of French gastronomic culture. I don’t think either of those things breaks free trade. Free trade is a tool that has enormous usefulness but does not serve _all_ the valid goals that people legitimately seek to accomplish through their governments. Free trade and the market are merely tools, not gods to be worshiped, not ideals in and of themselves that must have no infringement. If anyone thinks that makes me “anti free trade” then I think they need to get some perspective. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/30 "2015-04-02T02:49:17Z")
In the case of films, it’s valid, it’s just not very useful. Nothing says “Don’t see this film it will suck” like “brought to you by the government”. This is what the word “rump” was invented for, as in “rump film industry”. As for pigs, if there is market demand for a particular type of pig, then the pig will be produced. The number of goods and services that just won’t be produced without subsidization are vanishingly small. Mainly, they are things like “public goods” that governments traditionally provide at taxpayer expense, like public schooling and mail service because although the market will provide those things, it won’t provide them to all. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/31 "2015-04-02T07:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > How has NAFTA prevented the USA from such? I don’t know about NAFTA, but Philip Morris has been pretty aggressive about legal action against governments who want to introduce plain packaging for cigarettes (Australia and Uruguay), to take one example. One of the concerns in Europe about TTIP is that it would give corporations a route to force privatisation of public services, whatever the voters in any given state decide - and in less than open forums, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/32 "2015-04-02T10:31:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Free trade and the market are merely tools, not gods to be worshiped, not ideals in and of themselves that must have no infringement. If anyone thinks that makes me “anti free trade” then I think they need to get some perspective. Well, I think that makes you “anti free trade” in regard to French pigs or Canadian films, at least. Which is fine. Like you said, free trade and the market are tools, means to an end and not the end itself, but it also means that the French are going to end up paying more or worse quality hams and the Canadians more for worse quality films. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313/33 "2015-04-02T16:48:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, I think that makes you “anti free trade” in regard to French pigs or Canadian films, at least. Which is fine. Like you said, free trade and the market are tools, means to an end and not the end itself, but it also means that the French are going to end up paying more or worse quality hams and the Canadians more for worse quality films. I disagree. Subsidization and free trade are two different things. If Government A helps to fund the production of widgets, that’s a subsidy. If it imposes nontrivial tariffs on widgets produced abroad, that’s a barrier to free trade. While they may be equivalent in an abstract sense, they’re really not in a practical sense: it doesn’t directly cost the government anything to impose a tariff, but subsidizing an industry does have a direct cost. So it’s not easy for a government to do very much subsidization, and I’d be surprised to find that it’s a nontrivial issue in terms of its economic effects in reducing trade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-liberal-obama-voter-i-wont-support-an-anti-trade-anti-tpp-progressive/716313.md?page=1)