# As a Progressive, I am throwing in the towel **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 6, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912 "2020-11-06T18:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/101 "2020-11-30T02:22:57Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There are individual companies that are employee-owned, but then some of those have essentially a similar top-down corporate structure with similar profit sharing. Then you have cooperative businesses and businesses with a more lateral structure; however this doesn’t seem to be the norm. I’m sure that conventional top-down capitalists have biases against these types of businesses, but I also suspect that running a cooperative has its own challenges, both at the start up stage and throughout the life cycle of the business. In my proposed system, everyone who works for a business has an equal stake in the profits and an equal say in how the company is run. There could still be a hierarchal structure if necessary to coordinate everything, but the managers have no more power than anyone else. They would also be part of larger worker’s councils that they send recallable delegates to to coordinate economic output for the good of society as a whole. The capital will be distributed collectively by the worker’s councils based on need. I don’t support a centralized, planned economy like people like to always portray socialism and communism as. I support bottom-up socialism, where there is more decentralization and democracy directly in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/102 "2020-11-30T02:28:06Z")
I’m okay with your proposed profit sharing and governance - if it grows organically. There’s certainly an increase in the popularity of co-op owned businesses. Perhaps one way to achieve that reform with market forces would be to reform Wall Street so that Boards are more accountable to Johnny Shareholder and one of the benefits of working as an employee would be a share of profits, or outright share ownership. But keep in mind employees can collectively be steered toward ownership in a company and it can still end up being a disaster (see Enron). ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/103 "2020-11-30T02:29:14Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > That fine, stand by your convictions but also be realistic and no that you won’t win on most of them. > > I use to be an angry young man, now I am just older and smoldering and happy to compromise. That’s the thing, I wasn’t an angry young man, I was a leftist but in reality more of a social democrat when I look back. Content with more moderate changes and even supporting the Dems. I even served in the military during two wars I opposed. It’s only been over the past 5-6 years or so that things have gotten so bad that I realize radical change is the only way for our society and our planet to survive. So now I am a somewhat angry almost-middle aged woman who is fed up with the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/104 "2020-11-30T02:31:38Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’m okay with your proposed profit sharing and governance - if it grows organically. There’s certainly an increase in the popularity of co-op owned businesses. Ultimately it can only grow organically to a point, and that point is when it starts threatening the capitalists’ way of life. They need to be overthrown and their capital seized if there is to be any progress. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/105 "2020-11-30T02:34:59Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > I benefitted from the Medicaid expansion part of it, but that was the only aspect of it I supported. There wasn’t the slightest chance of expanding Medicaid by itself. So as I understand, it, if you were President, nothing would change. I realize the temptation, when you favor something, as I favor the actual Dutch system, and as you may favor an on-steroids version of the British system, to hope that your idea is the only practical alternative. But I still think that about mine. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/106 "2020-11-30T02:42:39Z")
This will totally go over too many heads but I’mma post it anyway, [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ck4ARSj1qD0/hqdefault.jpg "Marat/Sade 8/X") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck4ARSj1qD0) ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/107 "2020-11-30T02:45:25Z")
Obama initially had a public option in the ACA to his credit, and this was when the Democrats had a majority in the House and Senate during his first two years, but conservative Dems joined the Republicans in opposing it and so it was [never part of the final bill](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2010.0363). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/108 "2020-11-30T03:19:40Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The only country I know of that has something like Bernie’s vision is Taiwan, and it works there, in part, because people don’t ask for more than the system can give (although each patient is different and, if there is an overworked Taiwanese physician on the board, they are liable to disagree). In Taiwan, they don’t do the record-keeping expected here, and doctors visits, except if your illness is life-threatening, are quite brief. Americans would not accept that. Taiwan’s system “works” largely because doctors and nurses are paid little, and hospitals will resort to means to get ancillary income that would be unthinkable in America (such as opening 7-11 type convenience stores inside the hospitals, etc.) And patients are known to abuse the system by seeing doctors for things as mild as common colds. And even then the system is projected to be in the red; there is a real push to increase the premiums now in order to keep the system afloat. It **could** still work in America; it would just have to be much pricier though. Doctors and nurses in America wouldn’t accept the low pay (even if it were an adjusted-for-US-purchasing-power salary.) And the copays or deductibles would have to be steeper; you couldn’t get a hysterectomy for a $30 deductible like my mother did. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/109 "2020-11-30T03:32:11Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > I have no intention of watering anything down to try to sell it better, but your input is noted. I don’t alter views that are important to me based on which way the wind is blowing. That’s what the Democrats do. Then not only will you never see advancement towards your goals, you will also help doom everyone to constant victories by the right-wing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/110 "2020-11-30T04:27:44Z")
Progressives won’t get anywhere trying to sell their programs on the basis of efficiency and saving money. Their successes (in the workplace and on environmental protection, for example) aren’t noted for efficiency but for making people’s lives better. Effective selling points include fairness and security. Tell voters “we’ll save you lots of money!” and after they stop laughing, they’ll be inclined to vote for another Trump, or Trump Lite. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/111 "2020-11-30T11:19:13Z")
That’s why you should sell things in the language and value set of the people who you want to buy it. “Medicare for all! Why? Because I look after my neighborsl - it’s the American way!” “Forgive student debts! The US is the best country in the world and we need clever people to ensure that we stay number 1! Or aren’t you a patriot? USA, USA!” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/112 "2020-11-30T14:12:42Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > No, those were still anti-Trump votes. > > If Biden had been running against, say, Mitt Romney, or Ron Paul, or Ted Cruz, or anyone similar, he wouldn’t have gotten any Republican votes. > > Would there have been a high Democratic turnout in that case? Would he have won at all against a ‘normal’ Republican candidate? No, but Trump was already set as the Republican candidate. What you should be asking is if those Republicans would have held their nose and voted for anyone but Biden, and the answer is a big fat no. Bernie had zero chance this election, Biden won because he is not scary. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/113 "2020-11-30T14:57:51Z")
You have to counter the ‘Socialism’ label that’s coupled with images of starving Cubans and Venezuelans in shoebox lid rafts (by … somehow … showing happy Northern Europeans with their new baby and a ‘bill’ for $0.00, or a cancer survivor who doesn’t ‘survive only to face bankruptcy from the bills’ – hard to distill). You have to counter “Death Panels” when it comes to health care (maybe by images of Montgomery Burns denying valid claims from sick people who’ve _always_ paid their premiums on time). You have to counter fear. You have to disabuse somebody of a position that they came to out of fear and passion, rather than out of careful consideration of ample facts. Talk about a heavy lift. And for some – maybe most conspicuously, the acolytes of (tel)evangelicals – fear is what’s for breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/114 "2020-11-30T15:25:07Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > _Workers_ , no one dreams of being a worker. They might dream small of being a skilled employee, professional or small business owner or dream big of being a senior officer in a large corporation or a major politician. Who dreams of being a 1/5000th owner and worker of a steel plant? Yeah, much better to lie to people and tell them that if only they work hard enough one day they can get their own factory; of course while making it practically impossible for that to actually happen, since you don’t want more competition. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/115 "2020-12-01T15:30:27Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Ultimately it can only grow organically to a point, and that point is when it starts threatening the capitalists’ way of life. They need to be overthrown and their capital seized if there is to be any progress. “We’re going to take all your stuff if we win!” is not a platform that will bring people to your side. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/116 "2020-12-01T17:34:28Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > the issue is that our movement to the left is uneven, we’re moving to the right on other areas. > > moving to the left: > feminism > Non whites obtaining wealth, Power and acceptance > breaking the hold of Christian dominionism > drug laws > LGBT rights > > moving to the right: > gun control > blatant racism > redistribution of wealth > social safety nets > abortion rights > > FDRs New deal and LBJs great society would never happen today. that includes LBJs efforts at racial equality, since there’d never be bipartisan cooperation to promote justice for minorities on that level. > > Reagan and Nixon are fairly moderate by modern republican standards. This sounds like a general move towards more libertarian values (the good and the bad). > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I sincerely hope that the Democrats don’t forget what lost them the presidential election in 2016, and produced only a marginal victory in 2020 against the worst imaginable Republican candidate. What is that? AFAICT it was a horrible primary process. I have never before seen a primary with no incumbent that only had like 2 or 3 candidates participate in the first primary. We ended up with an inexperienced candidate that had never run a competitive campaign and there were a bunch of self inflicted injuries from the DNC conspiring against the bernie campaign to the optics of feeding debate questions to hillary. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > The Democratic Socialists of America had a 72% success rate nationally with the candidates and issues we endorsed and campaigned for. In deep blue districts. How many purple disctricts did the democratic socialists of america win? Zero? It does you no good to win California by the largest margin in history. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > We are constantly told to sit down, shut up, and wait our turn. No more. It’s more like “sit down and grow up” And you will never get “your turn” that’s not how democracy works. It’s not a seniority system. You don’t ever get a turn until you can convince the majority of american voters that your ideas are attractive. But they’re not. They’re not even attractive to the majority of democrats. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > we are going to make sure we have a seat at the table in a Biden Administration, whether he wants us to or not. How are you going to do that? AFAICT, the party isn’t exactly putting the far left center stage. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Biden doesn’t deserve the credit for that, though. People weren’t voting so much _for_ Biden and the status quo he represents, as voting _against_ Trump. > > The Democratic turnout was motivated by getting rid of Trump and putting someone sane in the White House, not by anything inspiring Biden had to offer. Yes, and to 80 million people Biden represented safe and sane. I’m not sure you would get that many people thinking Bernie was the safe sane choice. > [@BigT](#): > > We’ll never achieve it. By definition, you cannot. If you ever did, you’d be conservatives trying to maintain the status quo. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Would there have been a high Democratic turnout in that case? Would he have won at all against a ‘normal’ Republican candidate? You say this like you think Bernie would have done better against Romney. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > What then hurt Biden was that damn poor timing Defund Police crap The riots preceding the defund the police crap didn’t help. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Good article: Normal led to the coronavirus? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Which is the scary part, because the GOP doesn’t seem to get demoralized No, they don’t. They lost by 10 million votes and they still think they can win. In fact some of them are so sure of it they are paying lawyers millions of dollars to prove that they won. > [@Velocity](#): > > That’s why Biden’s victory didn’t translate into Democratic victories down-ballot Or it was the defund the police crap. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > So Democrats would rather let Trump win and ruin this country further than vote for someone running on actual issues that can drastically help the country just because they are so afraid of the **evil socialist**!!! What? No. We nominated biden because he could win and bernie could not. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > If people don’t realize that Republicans are beyond hope at this point, I don’t know what I can do to convince them. So you want to give up on about half the country? [quote=“Boudicca90, post:78, topic:924912”] They have been brainwashed through years of right-wing media to believe in this fantasy they have created where they are the heroes[/quote] This is not unique to them. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Liberal was renamed progressive I consider myself a liberal but not sure I’m a progressive. Progressives seem more socialist than liberal these days. Or do you think they’re the same thing? > [@Boudicca90](#): > > That’s why I support Bernie’s plan of complete coverage, where the government will pay for everything so supplemental insurance will become unnecessary. How would doctors get paid? > [@wolfpup](#): > > The problem is that the idea – like many progressive ideas – faces a tsunami of lying propaganda from corporate powers, the wealthy plutocracy, and the millions of rubes who have been bamboozled by them. I think it’s more than that. You’re asking them to take a chance on something that could make things worse. One of my relatives is an ER doctor and he was concerned about how Obamacare would impact the delivery of emergency services in his poor community. Sure it looked good on paper but the emergency room was getting by with a manageable loss that was covered by the increase in hospitalizations. Now he is an ardent fan of obamacare because a large portion of the “uninsureds” that created the loss turned into medicaid expansion patients that were able to create revenue for the services provided. When I talk to him about universal healthcare, he seems concerned about how that might upset the applecart. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > It is all worth championing and fighting for: Green New Deal, Medicare For All, Abolish ICE, Defund the Police, $15 Minimum Wage, Free Public College/Eliminate Student Debt and everything else we are fighting for. > > Just because an idea isn’t popular, doesn’t mean you should give in and accept that there will be no meaningful change. Conservatives and liberals both want us to give up on our ideals and ideology, but that ain’t happening. I don’t care if it isn’t selling, I’m going to sell it anyway. Sure, if you don’t mind being ignored. You can have some of those or you can have none of those. You cannot have all of those. Not right away. If the gay rights groups made their push for gay marriage by saying they wanted to have gay marriage and the right to force vendors that had a religious objection to gay marriage to cater their weddings and force catholic churches that otherwise rent out their facilities for things like music recitals and community meetings to also rent out their facilities for gay weddings… I don’t think it would have happened. But people were ready for gay marriage and we got it. Now they can argue about the rest but at least they have gay marriage. I think the absolutist position of the right on this issue is part of what doomed them. If the right had come out and given in on civil unions earlier, I don’t know that we would be here today. I think you should abandon unpopular ideas until you have safely ushered the popular ones past the finish line. Then you might find that other issues you care about start getting more popular. Get universal healthcare and it might get people thinking about free public colleges. Get free public colleges and it might get people thinking about forgiving student debt. Get forgiving studetn debt and you might get people thinking about higher minimum wages, etc. I knew I loved my wife when I met her but i didn’t ask her to marry me right away. I asked her on a date. That went pretty well, so I asked her on a second date, etc. It was incremental. If I asked her to marry me right away, I don’t know if I would have gotten past the first date. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > It doesn’t exist. And yes, it is because the capitalists don’t want such a system to happen. But there are socialist countries around the world and it doesn’t work there either. > [@Boudicca90](#): > > But for the workers it means they can produce without having their surplus value stolen from them by the few that own what they need TO produce. What you are describing sounds pretty close to communism. That capital represents the past labor and risk of capitalists, we can argue about the extent to which this should be inherited but mot peple in the USa owns a little peice of the pie through their 401K, their pensions, their insurance policies, etc. We can adjust how profit is distributed between labor and capital (and we probably should) but this is an incremental goal that can be achieved through labor laws and taxation. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > **Free Public College** is a tough sell but probably doable. Can it be tied to service? I don’t mean military but maybe some sort of works service to rebuild infrastructure, help improve nursing homes and other social programs? I agree generally but I disagree here. Free ought to be free. Do we believe that higher education is something that should be available to all who qualify regardless of ability to pay or should it only be available to those who can bear the freight? Free university education for those who make the cut is more universal than universal health care, it is more free to the consumer than universal health care. Outside of the former english colonies, the best schools in the country are frequently the top public universities that also happen to be free. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > “We’re going to take all your stuff if we win!” is not a platform that will bring people to your side. I think the platform is “we’re going to give you all of that rich guy’s stuff” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/117 "2020-12-01T17:39:25Z")
I just don’t think we actually can afford free Public College, even if the free part is Community & City colleges, that’s a big price tag. What countries do give free college and are there no service strings attached? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/118 "2020-12-01T17:40:46Z")
I think progressives sometimes forget that a lot of the progress we made came at times when things were pretty much awful, and people were willing to try something new even if it seemed to go against their ideology. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/119 "2020-12-01T17:41:34Z")
I’d rather see colleges reserved for more academically capable students and really push for the trades and apprenticeships instead ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912/120 "2020-12-01T19:47:50Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > “We’re going to take all your stuff if we win!” is not a platform that will bring people to your side. It’s actually “We will take all of your oppressor’s stuff and give it to you if we win!”, but that is much more of a long-term goal, not something we focus on when advocating for individual issues or more short-term goals. > [@asahi](#): > > I think progressives sometimes forget that a lot of the progress we made came at times when things were pretty much awful, and people were willing to try something new even if it seemed to go against their ideology. No, that is why we are growing so much over the past 5 years, because things have been pretty much awful and have been for quite some time. And Biden’s neoliberalism will just make things worse as he will screw over the people at the bottom even more to make his buddies and donors more wealthy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-a-progressive-i-am-throwing-in-the-towel/924912.md?page=7)