# As I’ve said before, this war will only end when NATO troops deploy openly in Ukraine, and not before **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2023, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366 "2023-04-29T11:03:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/26 "2023-04-30T12:54:13Z")
This was the **Breaking News** thread for Russia invades the Ukraine, not a thread to conjecture about Trump. Don’t do this again. I have split a large chunk of the recent posts out of the thread to this thread. Oy! ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/27 "2023-04-30T13:42:10Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > This was the **Breaking News** thread for Russia invades the Ukraine, not a thread to conjecture about Trump. Don’t do this again. I got carried away. I was merely trying to give an example of something that could go wrong for Ukraine which isn’t completely unimaginable. I’ll drop the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/28 "2023-04-30T13:47:05Z")
IMHO, the war will end with one of two things: 1. NATO intervenes directly. 2. NATO gives enough armament to Ukraine that Ukraine can get the job done itself. The third option, a Russian victory, isn’t going to happen - NATO has given just enough arms to stalemate the war but not end it. Unfortunately there are no signs of either 1# or 2# happening yet. Honestly, I’ve been yearning for Russia to attack a NATO state in some way ever since the war began. It would end things much better and faster. I would be tickled pink to read headlines of “Russian Missiles Strike Estonia” or something like that. This war has been like an immune system (Ukraine) trying to fight off germs (Russia) by itself when antibiotics (NATO) would solve it much faster. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/29 "2023-04-30T14:10:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Honestly, I’ve been yearning for Russia to attack a NATO state in some way ever since the war began. > **[Russian pilots tried to ‘dogfight’ US jets over Syria | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/29/europe/russia-fighter-pilots-dogfight-us-jets-syria-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > Russian pilots tried to “dogfight” US jets over Syria, according to a spokesman for US Central Command, part of a recent pattern of more aggressive behavior. > Russian pilots tried to “dogfight” [US jets over Syria](https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/us-jets-escort-russian-aircraft-syria/index.html), according to a spokesman for US Central Command, part of a recent pattern of more aggressive behavior… > > The Russian pilots do not appear to be trying to shoot down American jets, a US official told CNN, but they may be trying to “provoke” the US and “draw us into an international incident.” … > > Since the beginning of March, [Russian jets](https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/16/politics/russia-military-flights-syria-centcom/index.html) have violated deconfliction protocols a total of 85 times… Fortunately, U.S. pilots are generally well-disciplined. They’re not going to bite the baited hook on the Russian longline. But Russians seem prone to mistakes. If they poke too hard, they may cross the line and get smacked down. If they retaliate, then NATO (or at least the U.S.) will be involved. We’ve seen what happens when Nazis open a second front. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/30 "2023-04-30T14:42:18Z")
I honestly think that if NATO troops are deployed in any capacity to Ukraine without Putin being on board with it, Kiev will be the target of a tactical nuke. He’s itching to use one to see if the West will respond in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/31 "2023-04-30T14:47:26Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > What’s the difference between a Ukrainian with NATO weapons and a member of a NATO country with the same weapons? Russians striking at a member of NATO soldier would start WW3 while Russians striking at Ukrainian troops would not. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/32 "2023-04-30T14:51:31Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Russia can keep fighting for 10 years- with unlimited numbers of draftees and tens of thousands of 1950’s era artillery pieces. Everybody loves to dismiss those artillery pieces as silly and old-fashioned .But there aren’t enough Himar smart missiles on the planet to destroy them all.( Look how successful they have been in Bakmut. ) There’s nothing wrong with Soviet era equipment, much of it is extremely usable and the Russians are making heavy use of it. However, it’s not unlimited in quantity (especially as poor maintenance caused by soldiers signing off on repairs and preventative maintenance that never occurred has been going on for decades) and Russian manufacturing cannot keep up with the demand. As long as the supply of NATO weapons for Ukraine doesn’t dry up, Russia will not be able to keep this up for 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/33 "2023-04-30T14:56:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This war is actually what the UN peacekeeping forces are supposed to get in the middle of. The UN can do peacekeeping. They can’t do peacemaking. The blue helmets can come in during a truce as a buffer but they can’t fight an army. Even during peacekeeping their Rules of Engagement are so tight they can’t stop real aggression. They had to stand by and watch massacres in Bosnia. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/34 "2023-04-30T15:16:51Z")
Yes, the peacekeeping concept only works when there is some will on both sides to wind down the conflict. The only time UN forces were deployed in a purely military capacity was in the Korean War, and that is highly unlikely to ever happen again. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/35 "2023-04-30T15:29:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And even if Putin won’t ever give up, at some point that becomes irrelevant. **Ukraine will eventually push them back to the border,** and keep them there even when Russia pushes back. _Back to the border_ needs to mean _out of Crimea_ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/36 "2023-04-30T15:30:06Z")
I’d like to see the U.S. do stealthy B-2 or F-35 airstrikes, masquerading as Ukrainian action, just barely enough that it falls below the threshold of “Are the Ukrainians _capable_ of doing this?” in befuddled Kremlin minds. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/37 "2023-04-30T15:34:49Z")
Until one of the B-2s or F-35s is sighted by Russian folks equipped with cameras or crashes or is shot down. That plan is doomed to spectacular back-firing failure within days, if not hours, of being put into action. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/38 "2023-04-30T15:37:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’d like to see the U.S. do stealthy B-2 or F-35 airstrikes, masquerading as Ukrainian action, just barely enough that it falls below the threshold of “Are the Ukrainians _capable_ of doing this?” in befuddled Kremlin minds Why? Why do people keep coming up with these harebrained schemes that will accomplish little and only escalate the conflict? If you actually want to aid Ukraine, you need only look at what Ukraine is asking for. They need tanks and armored vehicles to continue making offensive pushes; they need long range missiles; and they need fighter jets (not necessarily F series; their existing infrastructure and training means that MIGs are easiest to deploy, and a plane designed for this exact scenario like the Swedish Gripen could also work well. Eta: and of course, they need munitions, rations, munitions, night vision goggles, munitions, body armor, munitions, and munitions. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/39 "2023-04-30T16:30:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _Back to the border_ needs to mean _out of Crimea_ as well. Yes, of course. By “the border”, I meant “the border that everyone in the world, including Russia, agreed to by treaty”. Which includes Crimea as part of Ukraine. > [@Babale](#): > > If you actually want to aid Ukraine, you need only look at what Ukraine is asking for. They need tanks and armored vehicles to continue making offensive pushes; We already have a bunch of modern tanks in Europe. If I were in charge, half of them would be loaded onto trains and shipped to western Ukraine immediately, together with enough experienced crews to train the Ukrainians on them. Let Ukraine decide when they’re ready to take them to the front lines. This is precisely why all of those tanks were built and sent to Europe in the first place, to resist Russian attempts at conquest. They can do that job a lot more effectively in Ukraine than on a base in Frankfurt. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/40 "2023-04-30T17:01:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We already have a bunch of modern tanks in Europe. If I were in charge, half of them would be loaded onto trains and shipped to western Ukraine immediately, together with enough experienced crews to train the Ukrainians on them. Let Ukraine decide when they’re ready to take them to the front lines. This is precisely why all of those tanks were built and sent to Europe in the first place, to resist Russian attempts at conquest. They can do that job a lot more effectively in Ukraine than on a base in Frankfurt Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that we are doing all we can or that we shouldn’t do more. By all means, send as many NATO tanks to Ukraine as possible, be they Abrams or Leopards or anything else. And I agree that stopping Russian aggression in Europe is precisely the reason that these weapons and platforms were built to begin with. There’s even a strong case for sending American made fighters like the F series, not so much for the planes themselves (as noted above MIGs or Gripens have a number of advantage here) but because some of our best long range missiles can only be launched from American made planes that can properly communicate with the missile. But the point is that there’s plenty of equipment that Ukraine has identified as something they need and that will make a big difference. If you or I or @Velocity want to aid Ukraine more we should tell our elected officials to send what Ukraine needs and is asking for, rather than fantasizing about scenarios that will kickstart WW3. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/41 "2023-04-30T17:27:07Z")
Maybe the fictional Russia that many thought existed as a very powerful military force prior to Feb '22, but the real Russia? Not a chance. They’ve barely been able to fight for a year. And for most of that year, they haven’t been able to accomplish anything militarily significant. Killing civilians is terrible, but it’s not difficult when you’re already in the territory. If Russia is expelled from Ukraine, then Ukraine can join NATO, and NATO forces can bolster Ukrainian defenses. And Russia won’t be able to do a damn thing – feeble artillery attacks would be responded to with modern airstrikes that destroy Russia’s ability to even fire those feeble obsolete artillery. Face it. Russia is very weak, militarily speaking. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/42 "2023-04-30T19:46:38Z")
Net of their nukes, yes they are very weak. But other than in the fantasy thread running concurrently with this one, they are _not_ net of their nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/43 "2023-04-30T20:28:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Honestly, I’ve been yearning for Russia to attack a NATO state in some way ever since the war began. It would end things much better and faster. I would be tickled pink to read headlines of “Russian Missiles Strike Estonia” or something like that. This war has been like an immune system (Ukraine) trying to fight off germs (Russia) by itself when antibiotics (NATO) would solve it much faster. Sorry, I can’t agree here. Don’t wish for war. The results would be hellish at best. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/44 "2023-04-30T22:08:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Eta: and of course, they need munitions, rations, munitions, night vision goggles, munitions, body armor, munitions, and munitions. Ukraine needs FOOD to fight. More than bullets. “An Army marches on its stomach” I think the UN and/or the US or Europe can do that. Funnel some Canadian grain through the US and we should be able to get it to Europe, and help with air drops. We can worry about the rest later. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366/45 "2023-04-30T22:40:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I recall the joke where a small country that wants an unwilling US to join their side in a war asks for advisors. > “How many do you need?” > “Just one, we’ll be sure he gets killed.” I think this dates back to pre-WWI days, when the French and British military were making tentative plans for mutual assistance in the event of war. General Foch was asked “What is the smallest British military force that would be of any practical assistance to you?” He replied: “A single British soldier – and we will see to it that he is killed.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-i-ve-said-before-this-war-will-only-end-when-nato-troops-deploy-openly-in-ukraine-and-not-before/983366.md?page=3)