# As if the torture photos weren't enough... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/1 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")
[French TV to show video of US helicopter killing unarmed Iraqis](http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm) > [@](#): > > French cable television station Canal Plus on Tuesday will broadcast images, stolen in Iraq, of a US army helicopter killing three Iraqis who do not appear to be posing any threat, one of whom was wounded. > > \ > > The footage shows how the three men were killed one after the other. After the deaths of his two companions, the third attempted to hide under a truck, but was hit by helicopter gunfire. > > “Got the guy right here,” says the sharpshooter, as the wounded man is seen crawling on the ground. > > “Good. Fire. Hit him,” replies the officer. Thanks a lot, fuckos. I hope you got your jollies. Why don’t you just go to work for _Al Jazeera_? How much more of this shit has been going on that _didn’t_ get caught on video or photographed? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/2 "2004-05-04T19:02:13Z")
Not to take away from the heinousness of the act, but isn’t that old footage? I’m fairly certain that I saw something similar on the Net a while ago. Iraq is lost, Bush. Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/3 "2004-05-04T19:04:08Z")
Worse is yet to come . . . next week, they’re releasing the torture dance video, with Britney Spears . . . ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/4 "2004-05-04T19:05:45Z")
I remember this too, or at least something very similar to the description. Are you sure this is a new incident? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/5 "2004-05-04T19:09:30Z")
I’m sure this is the same old incident from before. If it is, it’s not “camera footage”, but nightvision footage and as such, you can’t tell if those being pursued are armed or not. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/6 "2004-05-04T19:10:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How much more of this shit has been going on that _didn’t_ get caught on video or photographed? Like, maybe, the three guys firing an RPG at the helicopter a few minutes before? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/7 "2004-05-04T19:14:14Z")
Hm…this just popped up on Drudge today and I thought it was new. Maybe it’s just the footage that’s new. I apologize if I’m digging up an old story. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/8 "2004-05-04T19:15:42Z")
First off, welcome to last year. a) this video is old b) the other one you’re thinking of, is of a C-130 lighting up people around a small compund. both are shot in the same grainy grey nightvision We don’t know the context of this video at all, but of course I don’t expect people to consider that in their knee jerks. The real shame is this video is going to piss a lot of people off at the US. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/9 "2004-05-04T19:21:03Z")
> [@gatopescado](#): > > Like, maybe, the three guys firing an RPG at the helicopter a few minutes before? Like, maybe you should get your fucking facts straight before you run your mouth off? The Iraqis fired nothing at the helipcopter. The old story says they had a suspicious “cylindrical object” but they didn’t fire at anything and it doesn’t sem like it was even confirmed that it was a weapon. Today’s story says nothing about a cylindrical object and even says the Iraqis “did not appear to be posing any threat.” Where did you get this bullshit about a fired RPG? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/10 "2004-05-04T19:29:29Z")
I haven’t said much on either of these subjects, Diogenes, because I’ve got vertigo from shaking my head in disbelief, and it never ceases to amaze me what tales people like **gato** will come up with to make them feel nice and safe and proud of what some of these soldiers are doing. People assuming three Iraqi guys walking around are trying to shoot down helicopters, people assuming oral rape pictures are fake because our nice polite soldiers would never do such a thing, New Iklander saying that we don’t know for sure that the prisoners didn’t DESERVE rape and threatened electrocution. It’s hard to believe I know…but we have to face that some of these soldiers and even higher ranking military folks are ASSHOLES, pure and simple. My uncle in law is lifetime army with medals and commendations galore and he thought those torture pictures were “hilarious”. “stupid towelheads”. Proud to be an American, that’s me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/11 "2004-05-04T19:30:39Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Like, maybe you should get your fucking facts straight before you run your mouth off? > > The Iraqis fired nothing at the helipcopter. The old story says they had a suspicious “cylindrical object” but they didn’t fire at anything and it doesn’t sem like it was even confirmed that it was a weapon. > > Today’s story says nothing about a cylindrical object and even says the Iraqis “did not appear to be posing any threat.” Where did you get this bullshit about a fired RPG? Bro, the guy is killed 10 seconds after the video starts, we have no idea what happened before that. If you do, by all means, enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/12 "2004-05-04T19:33:09Z")
I think the video in question is here: [http://schwend-t.web.lynchburg.edu/apache.avi](http://schwend-t.web.lynchburg.edu/apache.avi) I have watched it. What one sees is three men getting the fuck blown out of them by a 30mm chain gun. I have read about this video on other forums, and the story that I heard is something like this: Supposedly, in footage before what is shown in the link, we see the three people pull up to the edge of the field where they place something in the field. Supposedly, the helo crew thinks, being that the field is next to a US military base, that it is some sort of RPG that in the morning will be picked up by the farmer of the field and fired at the military base. The helo crew decide to make the kill. Other than that, I have no evidence to back up the story, nor a link to the full version of the film. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/13 "2004-05-04T19:36:31Z")
[Linkety-link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235499) to an earlier thread that may or may not be about the same video. Probably what y’all are rememberin’. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/14 "2004-05-04T19:41:00Z")
> [@zut](#): > > [Linkety-link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235499) to an earlier thread that may or may not be about the same video. Probably what y’all are rememberin’. Yep, same video. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/15 "2004-05-04T19:43:05Z")
Wouldn’t it be much more likely that they would be setting up a mortar, considering that it was outside a base at night? Some cheap RPGs look just like tubes, but a lot are more complicated shapes. Mortars, however, especially the kind the Iraqis use, are indeed basically just tubes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/16 "2004-05-04T19:59:43Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Bro, the guy is killed 10 seconds after the video starts, we have no idea what happened before that. If you do, by all means, enlighten us. The fact remains that the Iraqis did not fire an RPG at the helicopter. Here’s a link to the original [ABC](http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/apache_video_040109.html) story. Do you find any basis in the story to assert that the Apache had been fired on or that the Iraqis even had an RPG? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/17 "2004-05-04T20:09:40Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > People assuming three Iraqi guys walking around are trying to shoot down helicopters, people assuming oral rape pictures are fake because our nice polite soldiers would never do such a thing, I know I can’t speak for _everyone_ else, but… personally, I had the same thoughts as **gatopescado** and **World Eater**. I don’t delude myself into thinking “our nice polite soldiers would never do such a thing”… I’d just like to give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt, or maybe even assume _they’re innocent, until proven guilty_. Granted, in cases like the one involving the pictures showing soldiers giving “thumbs up” while posing prisoners in different ways… I’d hate to be the one trying to persuade others of their innocence. On preview… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Do you find any basis in the story to assert that the Apache had been fired on or that the Iraqis even had an RPG? From **gato** ’s and **Eater** ’s posts, I didn’t get the impression that they were trying to blindly convince others of this scenario, only offering a suggestion. Since none of us were actually there to witness the event in its entirety, I would think we should try to get as much information as we can, and keep the jerking knees in check. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/18 "2004-05-04T20:12:22Z")
So you like to give soldiers the benefit of the doubt, but not three random Iraqi people. In order to give soldiers the benefit of the doubt we have to assume that these three guys were walking around in a field looking for U.S. Citizens to kill, right? I didn’t SEE evidence of the iraqis’ doing anything. I did SEE a man in a helicopter, completely free from danger, shoot a man trying to hide under a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/19 "2004-05-04T20:12:33Z")
Well… > [@](#): > > The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon. And > [@](#): > > A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops. And > [@](#): > > Keane agreed. “Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that,” he said. And > [@](#): > > Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. “They’re not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see.” If it were your son in the chopper, what would you want him to do? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/20 "2004-05-04T20:15:33Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > If it were your son in the chopper, what would you want him to do? 1. fire at the ground to scatter the three men. 2. fly away. Copter vs. guy running with an unidentified cylindrical object seems like an uneven battle. The killing of the third man was plain old calculated revenge murder. He was apparently injured, DOWN, CRAWLING UNDER A TRUCK TO SAVE HIS SKIN and was murdered. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=2)