# As if the torture photos weren't enough... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/21 "2004-05-04T20:20:25Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > So you like to give soldiers the benefit of the doubt, but not three random Iraqi people. That’s correct. Not to sound like a jackass, but-- while there are reports of some of our soldiers doing stupid shit, there have been a “few” more instances of iraqis firing RPGs at our soldiers. So, if I _had_ to give one of the parties the benefit of the doubt, I would certainly choose our soldiers. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/22 "2004-05-04T20:23:57Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > If it were your son in the chopper, what would you want him to do? Fly away. I _certainly_ wouldn’t want him to kill three people because they _might_ have gone on to kill American troops. Posession of a weapon (especially in a violent, lawless country) should not be enough evidence of intent to kill to allow the use of deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/23 "2004-05-04T20:24:46Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > If it were your son in the chopper, what would you want him to do? The guys in the chopper were not in any danger. Like **jarbaby** said, just scatrering them was probably enough. It was fucking chickenshit to chase a wounded guy under a truck and kill him when he couldn’t hurt them. Anyway, the point is that it doesn’t help an already terrible US image to have video of a US Apache helicopter using Iraqis for target practice (and that’s how it will be perceived, all chickenshit justifications aside). ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/24 "2004-05-04T20:25:36Z")
For me, one of the big differences between ‘us’ and ‘them’ is that we allow a free press to show the bad side of the military. I’m sure that former Iraqi government tortured it’s citizens. There are probably video tapes of these sessions. But those never aired on TV or the net and the people doing those things never thought they would have to answer for what they did. So for me, I have no problem with French television showing the tape. Except that it’s old and has been gone over a million times already. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/25 "2004-05-04T20:34:27Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > That’s correct. Not to sound like a jackass, but-- while there are reports of some of our soldiers doing stupid shit, there have been a “few” more instances of iraqis firing RPGs at our soldiers. Nobody fired an RPG at the Apache. Conjuring up fantasies about what someone on the ground _might_ do in some unforseeable future is not a justification to take human life. The Apache was in no imminent danger. Nothing was even pointed at it. They could have easily flown away. BTW, the trope that anyone with what _might_ be a weapon is fair game to kill because they _might_ use it on US troops someday cuts both ways. Iraqi resistance fighters can make the exact same argument for killing American soldiers. If they have guns, they’re a threat so it’s acceptable to snipe them or mine them or mortar them. You can’t have it both ways. We can’t say that THEY have to follow one set of rules but WE get to follow another one. > [@](#): > > So, if I _had_ to give one of the parties the benefit of the doubt, I would certainly choose our soldiers. Pictures like this will only get more US soldiers (and civilians) killed. At some point we have to actually _prove_ that we’re better than the terrorists instead of just saying it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/26 "2004-05-04T20:39:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Like **jarbaby** said, just scatrering them was probably enough. Enough for what??? Enough to let them get away so they can set up their mortar (or whatever it was) a few nights later and drop explosives on our people? Three men operating under the cover of darkness setting up a “tube” outside of a military base is no misunderstanding. I’d also like to point out that the helicopter is not up in the air in an effort to protect the **helicopter** it is up in the air to protect the **base** which was exactly the thing being threatened by these men. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/27 "2004-05-04T20:40:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The fact remains that the Iraqis did not fire an RPG at the helicopter. Here’s a link to the original ABC story. Do you find any basis in the story to assert that the Apache had been fired on or that the Iraqis even had an RPG? From the link. > [@](#): > > The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat. > > The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck. > > “Uh, big truck over here,” one of the pilots is heard saying. “He’s having a little powwow.” Now keep in mind this is being done in the dead of the night ins ome field not far from a base. Not the smartest thing to go out harvesting the crop at that time. > [@](#): > > The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks. I would consider this suspicious, wouldn’t you? > [@](#): > > “I got a guy running throwing a weapon,” one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, “or something larger than a rifle.” I’m sure they’ve seen plenty of people ditching weapons, or setting up positions, that’s what they’re trained to do. He seems pretty confident this is the case. > [@](#): > > The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: “Engage. Smoke him.” They _checked with their superior_, how reckless of them. > [@](#): > > The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver. > > Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men. The pilots _waited_, observed, and then _ **minutes later** _ took action on what they, and their higher ups viewed as a suspicious situation. What were they supposed to do, land the chopper and go sneak up in the bushes to be quadruple super duper extra sure? Honestly, if this is what happens every engagement, it’s thorough enough for me. I don’t see any indication of them going in with guns blazing. If You don’t want to get wasted, perhaps one shouldn’t sneak around in fields near bases, in the middle of the night when a fucking war is going on. I can see room for error here, but you’ll have to point out what they should have done differently, because I don’t see this as some huge mistake. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/28 "2004-05-04T20:42:04Z")
“Sir, request permission to relieve Diogenes from sentry duty, Sir.” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/29 "2004-05-04T20:42:59Z")
Now, I’m not a warhawk, and I detest the idea that our troops are in the line of fire in Iraq. However, I also understand that our troops are engaged in a war. Requiring our troops to wait until they or other troops are under direct fire is not only stupid, but will cost innumerable more lives. Requiring our troops to give an armed enemy soldier the “benefit of the doubt” is very nice in theory, until you consider the cost in human life. Requiring helicopter pilots to disengage unless they’re being fired upon directly is also very nice, neat and tidy. And will result in more dead soldiers. This is yet another reason why I am opposed to this war. In war, very bad things happen. Innocents die. Iraqi soldiers will be killed while unloading weapons for future use. Soldiers on both sides will not have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, they will not presume somebody innocent, and they won’t have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that that Iraqi soldier on the nightvision was going to attack American troops. War is horrible. War is tragic. War is dirty, painful, and uncertain. War is hell. War should never be entered into blindly, without thought of the costs in human life on both sides. And this war should never have happened. But it did. And I, for one, am not going to condemn American troops when they present a reasonable justification for what I saw on the videotape. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/30 "2004-05-04T20:44:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > BTW, the trope that anyone with what _might_ be a weapon is fair game to kill because they _might_ use it on US troops someday cuts both ways. Iraqi resistance fighters can make the exact same argument for killing American soldiers. Agreed. As far as I’m concerned, if they are attacking our military vehicles, personnel, bases, etc, that is fair game. They attack us, we attack them, that’s war, that is what soldiers do. This is in contrast to terrorists, who target civilians, not soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/31 "2004-05-04T20:45:08Z")
I’ll add that the only problem I have with this was shooting the wounded guy. I have no idea what the protocol is. What if a guy plays dead?, what if they leave him, and crawls over and sets up the mortar, etc etc. I don’t know about finishing him off being the best way to resolve the situation. Maybe send in ground guys? But then sending in ground guys to confirm that every dude you shot is doing what I mentioned above is quite laborious. War is hell, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/32 "2004-05-04T20:47:00Z")
In all those beautifully coded quotes World Eater, there is not one sentence that says “AND THEN THEY FIRED AN RPG AT THE HELICOPTER” If there was, I’d retract everything I said. From the looks of the article, now simply walking around in a field looking suspicious gets you the death penalty. Good work. And please explain to me how the injured man crawling under a truck to survive was a direct danger to the copter and the base. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/33 "2004-05-04T20:48:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Agreed. As far as I’m concerned, if they are attacking our military vehicles, personnel, bases, etc, that is fair game. They attack us, we attack them, that’s war, that is what soldiers do. This is in contrast to terrorists, who target civilians, not soldiers. So you have some definitive proof that these three guys were soldiers? Because I couldn’t tell from the video. And World Eater, our posts were simulposted, so I didn’t see you question the murder of the wounded guy. Question retracted. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/34 "2004-05-04T20:52:11Z")
They could have landed their heli and check out what the so called “object” was. I know, for you landing a helicopter to check out what exactly you have observed is not worth the effort in comparison with 3 towelhead’s lives. Completely understandable and not only because the proof of the High Standards of the US Army is once again delivered these days. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/35 "2004-05-04T20:54:43Z")
Not just any field, **jar** , one next to our base and at night. They weren’t out there farmin’. And “proof they were soldiers”? That’s just it, these chickenshits hide among the populace. It’s there refusal to wear a uniform that helps make everyone a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/36 "2004-05-04T20:59:19Z")
but you are saying it was right to kill them just on a supposition? Please! If it was a field near a base, call the base and tell them to go out and have a look around. Don’t blow them to smithereens because you assume those ‘crazy ragheads’ are at it again. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/37 "2004-05-04T20:59:24Z")
Ever thought about this: If there was no US army base in Iraq, there would not be one US soldiers in danger in Iraq. Ther would also be no need for Iraqis to try to chase the US invaders from their own land. If they wear a “uniform” or not has nothing to do with it. I do not wish you personally any harm of course, but welcome to reality. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/38 "2004-05-04T21:02:18Z")
Thank you, **jarbabyj** , for sitting this conflict out. God forbid you enlisted, rose to a rank of authority, and ordered your soldiers who witnessed suspicious activities outside of your base to hold their fire until it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had malicious intent. I’m not a veteran or anything, but I would imagine that 3 Iraqis with a mortar cannon can get a lot of killing done while your orders to your soldiers to “scatter them” are carried out. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/39 "2004-05-04T21:03:23Z")
Definitive proof? Nope, it could have been just a terrible mistake with these three gentlemen meeting up in the middle of the night outside of an army base to innocently dispose of a large cardboard tube. While I’m being a bit snarky with my response, it’s only to say that I think it is highly unlikely that these 3 men were just there at random. As far as I’m concerned, if you are an enemy combatant, taking actions to further the killing of my people, you are risking your life. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/40 "2004-05-04T21:06:00Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > I know, for you landing a helicopter to check out what exactly you have observed is not worth the effort in comparison with 3 towelhead’s lives. Nope, it’s not worth getting the helicopter blown out of the sky when the decision has already been made based on these guy’s actions that they’re combatants. If there’s no US soldiers in Iraq, then Saddam’s still there, Uday’s still raping and Qusay is going to run Iraq just like his murderous old man did for the next 35 or 40 years. What makes you think you’ve got any sense of reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=3)