# As if the torture photos weren't enough... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/41 "2004-05-04T21:06:13Z")
I already mentioned my beef with the third guy. > [@jarbabyj](#): > > In all those beautifully coded quotes World Eater, there is not one sentence that says “AND THEN THEY FIRED AN RPG AT THE HELICOPTER” > > If there was, I’d retract everything I said. The logic that only justification of firing on them is if the chopper is in _direct_ danger is ludicrous. These choppers are out on patrol during all times looking for suspicious activity. There are plenty of justifiable reasons for blowing those guys up. Approaching convoy could have been moving into danger. A base patrol could have been heading into mortar range. They could have been moving into position with an RPG to shoot something _other_ the chopper doing the shooting. Could have been setting up a mortar position to hit up the base. Could have been dropping equipment off for someone else to move later. WTF, the chopper is supposed to hover there until they shoot an RPG at it? They can’t shoot them while they are getting into position? Wouldn’t that make more sense? Christ, I’m glad you’re not running things. > [@](#): > > From the looks of the article, now simply walking around in a field looking suspicious gets you the death penalty. Good work. I love how you leave out a few more important factors. It was night (what he was harvesting corn in the middle of the night?) The guy had something that resembled a mortar or rpg he was near an enemy base > [@](#): > > And please explain to me how the injured man crawling under a truck to survive was a direct danger to the copter and the base. I don’t agree with lighting up the last guy, but to be honest I don’t know what they should do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/42 "2004-05-04T21:07:35Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > Thank you, **jarbabyj** , for sitting this conflict out. God forbid you enlisted, rose to a rank of authority, and ordered your soldiers who witnessed suspicious activities outside of your base to hold their fire until it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had malicious intent. I’m not a veteran or anything, but I would imagine that 3 Iraqis with a mortar cannon can get a lot of killing done while your orders to your soldiers to “scatter them” are carried out. There’s no evidence they had a mortar, that’s just speculation. And what do you think about a guy who rises to authority and then sends thousands of US troops into harm’s way for no good reason? Also, what is the definition of “suspicious?” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/43 "2004-05-04T21:11:30Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I already mentioned my beef with the third guy. > > The logic that only justification of firing on them is if the chopper is in _direct_ danger is ludicrous. > > These choppers are out on patrol during all times looking for suspicious activity. There are plenty of justifiable reasons for blowing those guys up. > > Approaching convoy could have been moving into danger. > A base patrol could have been heading into mortar range. > They could have been moving into position with an RPG to shoot something _other_ the chopper doing the shooting. > Could have been setting up a mortar position to hit up the base. > Could have been dropping equipment off for someone else to move later. > > WTF, the chopper is supposed to hover there until they shoot an RPG at it? They can’t shoot them while they are getting into position? Wouldn’t that make more sense? > > Christ, I’m glad you’re not running things. > > I love how you leave out a few more important factors. > > It was night (what he was harvesting corn in the middle of the night?) > The guy had something that resembled a mortar or rpg > he was near an enemy base > > I don’t agree with lighting up the last guy, but to be honest I don’t know what they should do. They should fly the fuck away is what they should do. They were in no fucking danger. I need more than “suspicious behavior” to execute a summary death penalty, but that’s just me. I actually have a conscience about murdering helpless people. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/44 "2004-05-04T21:11:56Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > If You don’t want to get wasted, perhaps one shouldn’t sneak around in fields near bases, in the middle of the night when a fucking war is going on. Bingo One of the old rules of surviving in war - shoot first, ask questions later ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/45 "2004-05-04T21:12:04Z")
I’m all confused. First when I said fly away, I was told it wasn’t the helicopter that was in danger, but the base. Then when I say hold your fire and tell the base, you tell me the helicopter was in danger of being blown out of the sky. My dad is an avid astronomer. Sometimes he goes outside with a huge, mounted metal tube and points it right at the sky. I’d better call him tonight. Also, I’m amazed at how three Iraqis with ONE **ALLEGED** MORTAR could undermine an entire army base. I’m curious to hear the details. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/46 "2004-05-04T21:14:16Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > They could have landed their heli and check out what the so called “object” was. That ain’t going to happen, nor should it. > [@](#): > > I know, for you landing a helicopter to check out what exactly you have observed is not worth the effort in comparison with 3 towelhead’s lives. Well I certainly don’t view the Iraqis in the manner you believe we do. I wouldn’t expect any country to put their soldiers at risk by landing their chopper. > [@](#): > > Completely understandable and not only because the proof of the High Standards of the US Army is once again delivered these days. > > Salaam. A Believe me, there’s a lot I’m not happy with the way our soldiers are acting, but let’s not misplace the rage on the wrong incidents. Let’s take each case on it’s own merits. ---
**Author:** ![BonoVox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@BonoVox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BonoVox)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/47 "2004-05-04T21:14:18Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > 1. fire at the ground to scatter the three men. > > 2. fly away. > > Copter vs. guy running with an unidentified cylindrical object seems like an uneven battle. > > The killing of the third man was plain old calculated revenge murder. He was apparently injured, DOWN, CRAWLING UNDER A TRUCK TO SAVE HIS SKIN and was murdered. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/48 "2004-05-04T21:17:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Also, what is the definition of “suspicious?” I think that’s been pointed out several times in this thread. Combat situation, night, 3 possible insurgents, unidentified tube resembling a mortar cannon or bazooka, in a field near a US army base. More than enough reason to “neutralize” the threat, as far as I’m concerned. It’s a war over there. Fought with real ammunition. Not some sort of training exercise fought with paintballs. When you’re in a war zone, you take them out. Lives depend on it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/49 "2004-05-04T21:18:01Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > … I’d just like to give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt, or maybe even assume _they’re innocent, until proven guilty_. > > LilShieste Yes, but that would apply too to the Irakis being killed. By assuming the americans soldiers are innocent until proven guilty, you automatically assume the killed Irakis are guilty until proven innocent. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/50 "2004-05-04T21:18:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They should fly the fuck away is what they should do. They were in no fucking danger. I need more than “suspicious behavior” to execute a summary death penalty, but that’s just me. I actually have a conscience about murdering helpless people. Helpless people don’t rendezvous in the middle of the night near a base carrying suspicious objects around during a war. If they were that stupid - can we claim a victory for darwin? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/51 "2004-05-04T21:18:56Z")
> [@BonoVox](#): > > Bullshit. You’re allowed to type more than one word at a time. Care to explain what the fuck you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/52 "2004-05-04T21:20:12Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > My dad is an avid astronomer. Sometimes he goes outside with a huge, mounted metal tube and points it right at the sky. I’d better call him tonight. In a combat zone? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/53 "2004-05-04T21:20:33Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > I think that’s been pointed out several times in this thread. > > Combat situation, night, 3 possible insurgents, unidentified tube resembling a mortar cannon or bazooka, in a field near a US army base. More than enough reason to “neutralize” the threat, as far as I’m concerned. > > It’s a war over there. Fought with real ammunition. Not some sort of training exercise fought with paintballs. When you’re in a war zone, you take them out. Lives depend on it. In other words, “suspicious behavior” is whatever a bunch of chickenshits decide it is in their chickenshit fevered imaginations. Thanks for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/54 "2004-05-04T21:21:58Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > In a combat zone? What combat zone? Bush said the war was over. He even had a victory party for himself, as I remember. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/55 "2004-05-04T21:24:57Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Also, I’m amazed at how three Iraqis with ONE **ALLEGED** MORTAR could undermine an entire army base. I’m curious to hear the details. Bolding mine. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104279,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104279,00.html) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Iraq — An American soldier died when guerrillas shelled a military **base** in the northern city of Mosul on Friday, a day after President Bush’s surprise visit to U.S. troops at a heavily fortified military compound at Baghdad’s main airport. [http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME](http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) – Shiite militiamen fired mortars at a U.S. **base** in Najaf and bombarded a municipal hall in a nearby city Tuesday, as U.S.-led forces sought to resolve the standoff with militants south of the capital [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/07/sprj.nirq.main/](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/07/sprj.nirq.main/) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) – The U.S. military said 35 soldiers were wounded Wednesday in a mortar attack on a logistical **base** west of Baghdad, marking one of the highest casualty tolls from such attacks. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4805615/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4805615/) > [@](#): > > 4 U.S. soldiers killed in rocket strike on military base… > The four U.S. solders were killed around dawn, when two rockets were fired from a truck and slammed into the **base** in Taji, 12 miles north of Baghdad, Air Force Lt. Col. Sam Hudspath said. U.S. helicopter gunships then destroyed the truck, the military said. I could go on forever. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/56 "2004-05-04T21:25:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In other words, “suspicious behavior” is whatever a bunch of chickenshits decide it is in their chickenshit fevered imaginations. Yeah, pretty much. Substitute “soldier”, “cop”, etc. for “chickenshit” and this statement is true for many situations. Point being, if you’re in a situation where there are a lot of nervous soldiers/cops around don’t be a fucking idiot and do things to make them more nervous, you might not like the result. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/57 "2004-05-04T21:25:19Z")
Yes. I thought we were just ‘rebuilding’ at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/58 "2004-05-04T21:26:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In other words, “suspicious behavior” is whatever a bunch of chickenshits decide it is in their chickenshit fevered imaginations. > > Thanks for clearing that up. I’m not a soldier, but I know what the fuck guerilla warfare is. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/59 "2004-05-04T21:26:47Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Bolding mine. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104279,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104279,00.html) > > [http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME](http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME) > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/07/sprj.nirq.main/](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/07/sprj.nirq.main/) > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4805615/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4805615/) Naturally, your next links will be to the evidence that these were all committed by three guys with one weapon. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/60 "2004-05-04T21:27:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Enough for what??? Enough to let them get away so they can set up their mortar (or whatever it was) a few nights later and drop explosives on our people? Three men operating under the cover of darkness setting up a “tube” outside of a military base is no misunderstanding. > > I’d also like to point out that the helicopter is not up in the air in an effort to protect the **helicopter** it is up in the air to protect the **base** which was exactly the thing being threatened by these men. If there indeed were a nearby base, how comes nodody could have come and investigate the potential weapon once the guys scattered, let alone once two were killed and the third one incapacited? There aren’t any soldiers and any vehicles in american military bases? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=4)