# As if the torture photos weren't enough... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/61 "2004-05-04T21:28:58Z")
Q. What do you call three suspicious but unconfirmed civilians carrying large objects around in the dark next to a military base of an occupying force in a country with recent military action and in a zone where sniper and guerrilla attacks are common? A. Targets By any stretch of the imagination these guys were at best foolish innocents. You could be a foolish innocent flying your plane over the whitehouse and any intelligent person would understand why you were blown up. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/62 "2004-05-04T21:29:58Z")
> [@Jar](#): > > My dad is an avid astronomer. Sometimes he goes outside with a huge, mounted metal tube and points it right at the sky. I’d better call him tonight. I pray to God you would not give your Dad that advice if the sky were being patrolled by enemy helicopters from an invading army. > [@Dio](#): > > What combat zone? Bush said the war was over. The reason I know that that is beneath you is because I know that you’re way smarter than I am. First, Bush never said the war is over. Second, there are soldiers engaged in combat against people who pretend to be ambulance drivers but who have bombs strapped to their bodies. It is a combat zone. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/63 "2004-05-04T21:30:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What combat zone? Bush said the war was over. He even had a victory party for himself, as I remember. oh come on. Yes, we all remember “mission accomplished”. but I’d have thought we all recognize that Iraq today is indeed, a combat zone. WRT the issue posed by the OP, I fear that we are in a situation that no matter what actions are taken by individual soldiers, our motives remain suspect to many, especially those native to the area. This is a situation that has been created by a long list of poor decisions, unrealistic expectations, complete lack of common sense, combined with a critical lack of planning. the combined result has made Americans anywhere in the ME moving targets to increasing numbers of people. (MHO). and not done a lick of good in increasing the safety of any American anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/64 "2004-05-04T21:32:34Z")
Well wring, I just hope we don’t see these same people in here complaining when Iraqis fire on and kill american soldiers purely on suspicion. What comes around goes around. And it’s going to get a lot uglier before it gets all smoothed over. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/65 "2004-05-04T21:33:35Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Naturally, your next links will be to the evidence that these were all committed by three guys with one weapon. > > I’ll wait. It doesn’t take an army to shoot a mortar, just a few guys. Are you even remotely familiar with the concept of guerilla warfare? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/66 "2004-05-04T21:34:28Z")
First-- I want to say that I’m conflicted as to what our soldiers should have done with “the third iraqi”. As others have mentioned, I’m not sure what the military tells our soldiers to do in that situation. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There’s no evidence they had a mortar, that’s just speculation. Well, pretty much everything being talked about in this thread can be considered speculation. > [@](#): > > And what do you think about a guy who rises to authority and then sends thousands of US troops into harm’s way for no good reason? Where did this come from? I think Bush is a tool. Moving on. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes, but that would apply too to the Irakis being killed. By assuming the americans soldiers are innocent until proven guilty, you automatically assume the killed Irakis are guilty until proven innocent. Ok, I’ll concede that maybe my “innocent until proven guilty” comment doesn’t really apply to this situation. Instead, I’ll just direct more focus to the suspicious behavior that seems to have been occurring. > [@DtC](#): > > What combat zone? Bush said the war was over. He even had a victory party for himself, as I remember. You’re trying to shift the focus here. Regardless of what Shrub & Co. declared, anyone who truthfully thinks the war is over needs to pull their head out of their ass. > [@jarbabyj](#): > > Naturally, your next links will be to the evidence that these were all committed by three guys with one weapon. Why exactly does _that_ matter? LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/67 "2004-05-04T21:36:38Z")
It matters because we apparently couldn’t overtake THREE GUYS with ONE WEAPON in any other way but murdering them. I am familiar (a bit) with Guerilla warfare, but I find it interesting that we get our panties all in a bunch and go ballistic when OUR soldiers are killed in the middle of it, but it’s all good fun when theirs are. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/68 "2004-05-04T21:36:57Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Well wring, I just hope we don’t see these same people in here complaining when Iraqis fire on and kill american soldiers purely on suspicion. Do you see anyone complaining? We’re analyzing ONE specific event. We’ll analyze the next specific event when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/69 "2004-05-04T21:37:26Z")
> [@Jar](#): > > Well wring, I just hope we don’t see these same people in here complaining when Iraqis fire on and kill american soldiers purely on suspicion. Suspicion, hell! 😃 They do it purely on account. Southern Apalachian expression, for those unfamiliar. He does it purely on account = He does it just to do it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/70 "2004-05-04T21:40:36Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Helpless people don’t rendezvous in the middle of the night near a base carrying suspicious objects around during a war. If they were that stupid - can we claim a victory for darwin? And in what sense an injured guy watched over by a couple helicopters is a threat? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/71 "2004-05-04T21:41:03Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > It matters because we apparently couldn’t overtake THREE GUYS with ONE WEAPON in any other way but murdering them. \ Would you be happier if we pushed them out of windows? \ BTW, you stop people with weapons by killing them or injuring them badly. It’s been this way since the dawn of time. > [@](#): > > I am familiar (a bit) with Guerilla warfare, but I find it interesting that we get our panties all in a bunch and go ballistic when OUR soldiers are killed in the middle of it, but it’s all good fun when theirs are. I would say _a lot_ of people have their panties in a buch over these 3 Iraqis getting killed. In case you’ve missed the widespread outrage over this video. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/72 "2004-05-04T21:42:12Z")
Right Lib, they’re savages…we’re noble freedom fighters. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/73 "2004-05-04T21:44:19Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > BTW, you stop people with weapons by killing them or injuring them badly. It’s been this way since the dawn of time. Or by arresting them or avoiding said people. Needless to say I don’t think we should still be in Iraq. > [@](#): > > I would say _a lot_ of people have their panties in a buch over these 3 Iraqis getting killed. In case you’ve missed the widespread outrage over this video. :rolleyes: And you’re angered by their outrage because the killings, to you were a good thing, no? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/74 "2004-05-04T21:45:59Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > My dad is an avid astronomer. Sometimes he goes outside with a huge, mounted metal tube and points it right at the sky. I’d better call him tonight. Please, **jarbabyj** , I really hope you see the problem with this analogy. > [@](#): > > Well wring, I just hope we don’t see these same people in here complaining when Iraqis fire on and kill american soldiers purely on suspicion. Why exactly are they firing on and killing our soldiers now? Personally, if the militant iraqis only fired on soldiers who were acting suspiciously (hell, let’s go with soldiers abusing prisoners), I think that would be better than firing on and killing any/all american soldiers period. > [@](#): > > And it’s going to get a lot uglier before it gets all smoothed over. Now this is something we both agree on. > [@clairobscur](#): > > And in what sense an injured guy watched over by a couple helicopters is a threat? I can’t speak for **flickster** , but it seems to me that, generally speaking, there are mixed feelings about the wounded iraqi. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/75 "2004-05-04T21:47:05Z")
What they COULD have done is put a few rounds in the trucks to disable them, drop a flare to make it easier for ground troops to find the guys, and taken some prisoners. Ones who REALLY might have some useful information instead of guys they rounded up in a street sweep. Watching them shoot a wounded man who was trying to reach shelter sickened me and made me ashamed of our military, a position that recent revelations have not eased. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/76 "2004-05-04T21:48:28Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Please, **jarbabyj** , I really hope you see the problem with this analogy. So what you’re saying is that it’s absolutely impossible that there is any other explanation for those people being outside at night? You’re 100% positive it was a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/77 "2004-05-04T21:50:50Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Right Lib, they’re savages…we’re noble freedom fighters. I think the point is that sure, we could “shoot to scatter” unless we’ve caught them 100% redhanded, but letting them go might result in many more deaths. You ever see Saving Private Ryan? They let the dude go, and he simply rejoins comes back and kills a bunch of them. I’m not suggesting they execute him either, I’m just saying that there is a potential price to letting them go. Do you think they’re going to go, “well shit that was close, I better give this life up, and go back to my farm”? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/78 "2004-05-04T21:51:41Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Well wring, I just hope we don’t see these same people in here complaining when Iraqis fire on and kill american soldiers purely on suspicion. > > What comes around goes around. And it’s going to get a lot uglier before it gets all smoothed over. well - correct me if I err, but - isn’t that pretty much what’s going on now? ie, (certain) Iraqis firing on Americans - let’s not figure out if they’re soldiers, they’re all scum? which was, of course, my point. Because of the long list of stuff (from ever changing lists of why we were there in the first place, through the lack of strategic planning, the pie in the sky expectations, on through the most recent pictures of the prisoners- especially considering our own moral outrage when video tapes of our captive soldiers being questioned ) has done nothing more than paint a fucking target on the back of every single person who remotely looks American over there. and, of course, done shit for our safety here. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/79 "2004-05-04T21:53:35Z")
yes, that’s what’s going on now, and I see Americans calling those Iraqis cowards and assholes and like lieu said “chickenshits”. but when a team of Americans hide in a helicopter and cherry pick three suspicious iraqis, we’re supposed to hail them as heroes. THAT’S what I’m not understanding. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/80 "2004-05-04T21:55:11Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Or by arresting them or avoiding said people. Avoiding the people trying that are trying to kill you doesn’t really solve the problem. > [@](#): > > Needless to say I don’t think we should still be in Iraq. Neither do I > [@](#): > > And you’re angered by their outrage because the killings, to you were a good thing, no? Not angered one bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=5)