# As if the torture photos weren't enough... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504 "2004-05-04T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/161 "2004-05-05T20:32:53Z")
> [@Jar](#): > > Baby, that’s the biggest IF I’ve ever seen. Well, it looks big to you here and now. But when you’re in a military helicopter in a hostile nation that your country has just invaded and you see someone aiming a metal tube at you (_Note: you would have seen grenade launchers in basic training_), it’s just a teeny tiny little IF. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/162 "2004-05-05T20:33:12Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Baby, that’s the biggest IF I’ve ever seen. No, I was setting up a telescope to view the twinkling stars is a lot bigger. > [@](#): > > I saw a great political cartoon the other day with a bunch of dead bodies strewn across a landscape and it said: > > Pre-emption means never having to say your sorry. Please try and seperate this incident, and the war. Each can be completely judged on their own merits. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/163 "2004-05-05T20:48:55Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > One guy/gal being spit on or persecuted for carrying out his countries orders is too many. I agree as a general rule. There **are** exceptions. For intance, I’d like to hock a great big loogie at the people involved in the prison incident, but when I was growing up the Nuremburg trials were still fresh in people’s minds and “I vas chust followink orders” was purposely used as the lamest of excuses. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/164 "2004-05-05T20:52:50Z")
Surely you’re not suggesting that the abuse of prisoners was an ORDER given to the prison guards?!?! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/165 "2004-05-05T21:03:45Z")
That’s what they’ve been claiming: > [@](#): > > Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client’s defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, “Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?” [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/) ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/166 "2004-05-05T21:05:33Z")
Well that’s just an amazing level of bullshit. Cripes almighty. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/167 "2004-05-05T21:07:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **jarbabyj** -and? So that means it didn’t ever happen? I’ve never, nor have any of my friends called women “hot tomatas”. You are expectionally shrill and strident in this thread, **jarbabyj** :rolleyes: Of course I didn’t say that that it **never** happened although like others, I have my doubts about the gory details. And, as I was pretty active in the anti-movement during the 70’s, I tend to believe that if the spitting/babykiller phenomena was prevalent or even common, I would have seen it first hand. The closest thing that I ever heard was “Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?” However, to repeat what I said in my first post, my personal experiences working with men returning form Vietnam convinced me that the complete indifference of their government was far more of a betrayal and had far graver consequences than the anything that was said or done to them by their peers. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/168 "2004-05-05T21:09:21Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > **Diane** , I worked with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Oakland during the early 70’s. > I also lived with a vet that had been honorably discharged during his second tour of duty because he had nightmares and would wake up screaming. > He thought he was drowning. > Call it a coincidence, but he was involved in the interrogation of Vietcong prisoners in Saigon and one of the methods that the Marines purportedly used in questioning was to pour water via a funnel down the prisoner’s throat. > I’m certainly not trying to discredit your experience as a counselor and I know you’ve met with many more veterans than I have and have a far better grasp of the whole picture. > However, the guys I knew felt far less betrayed by their civilians peers than they did by their government. > Post traumatic tress syndrome was barely acknowledge and there was consistent government denial about the effects of Agent Orange. > These men were dumped back into society with little or no psychological support. > We had to fight hard on their behalf to get them any sort of help at all. > I realize that this is a complex issue and I’m in no way claiming that the government’s abandonment of these men was totally responsible for many of the problems that they faced in their return. > But it sure as hell didn’t help the situation and considering the propensity that this administration has for slashing the benefits of military personal, I too am worried about what will happen when Johnny comes marching home again. All those things you mention are indeed correct. It is my experience that most vets who are experiencing PTSD and other problems feel more betrayed by their government than they do their peers. However, it really isn’t one or the other that contribute to it but a combination of what they feel the government did to them, treatment once they got home, and the things they experienced while serving on the battlefield. Like you said, it is really complicated, but in some of the veterans the shame they were made to feel after they arrived home was very real. You are also right that it took too long for the government to recognized disabilities presumed to be a result of Agent Orange exposure. We have come a long way in that new conditions are continuously being studied. The most recently recognized condition is diabetes mellitus type II. The situation with Agent Orange has resulted in the government being more willing and open to the idea that soldiers may come into contact with something harmful. A good example is service connected compensation for Gulf War veterans suffering from “Undiagnosed Illness”. To be fair, PTSD is a fairly new diagnosis. They knew that soldiers experienced “battle fatigue” or “nervousness”, but it took some study to fully understand and recognize it as a real disorder. This latest generation of veterans will have their own unique problems, I just hope that shame put upon them by your average Joe Citizen isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/169 "2004-05-05T21:17:53Z")
And while I’m on a roll here… > [@](#): > > **jarbabyj** …but I would never question the carrying out of orders. Ever hear of Mai Lai? Ever hear of the Nuremburg trials? We’ve already established that “I was just carrying out orders” is not a justification for crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/170 "2004-05-05T21:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today? \*Hell, no! We won’t go! Pigs go home! Make love, not war! Down with Amerikan imperialist capitalist pigs waging war against the innocent Vietnamese people!\* We had a million of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/171 "2004-05-05T21:24:09Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > And while I’m on a roll here… > > Ever hear of Mai Lai? > Ever hear of the Nuremburg trials? > We’ve already established that “I was just carrying out orders” is not a justification for crimes against humanity. In all of those trials, it is the orders I have a problem with AND the administration of said orders. In the case of raping inmates, I simply don’t believe that such abuses were a direct order “Take those guys down there, make them blow each other and take photographs” was not an order. Those people were assholes. However, being told to shoot at three Iraqis WAS an order, and while vile, I would not spit on the soldiers returning for doing it. I don’t feel it was a war crime, I just think it was tragic. Did all the men coming home from Vietnam and were spit on and yelled at guilty of war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/172 "2004-05-05T21:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > **Diane** - This latest generation of veterans will have their own unique problems, I just hope that shame put upon them by your average Joe Citizen isn’t one of them. Afuckingmen. However, given the recent documentary that I just saw on the appalling conditions that exist in many Veteran’s hospitals, I’m still really afraid that they will have a very difficult time getting the help that they need. And **Libertarian** -our little slogans nearly always rhymed which made them much more fun to chant. Sorry but yours sound sorta boring. _One two three four-we don’t need your fucking war. Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh-the NFL are going to win!_ And my fave: _All you chauvinist pigs are shaking 'cause you’re going to be tomorrow’s bacon!_ ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/173 "2004-05-05T21:33:02Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Baby, that’s the biggest IF I’ve ever seen. > > And what the hell do you think the soldiers are going to say? By the time they tell the story it’ll be that the three men were holding up a sign that said “WE’VE COME TO KILL YOU” They might be able to corroborate evidence from the ground. Or from the people that cleaned up the bodies, “Yep, these guys had explosives on them.” Should the Apache wait til there`s an actual projectile entereing the hull of the craft before it retaliates? I think the US has had enough Apaches shot down so far. If these guys have ichy trigger fingers, I hardly blame them. I doubt that is the case though, I hope they were acting on orders to disable any suspicious and possibly harmful activities before it was too late. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/174 "2004-05-05T21:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **jarbabyj** …In all of those trials, it is the orders I have a problem with AND the administration of said orders. Whether you believe it or not, the man I lived had been ordered to pour water down prisoner’s throats until they passed out. His job was collecting information on the enemy _by any means necessary._ Here’s the way I understand it: You need intelligence. You’re told to question the prisoners and extract that intelligence any way you can. It’s a war, after all, and your friends are being sent home in black plastic bags. No, you never get a formal written order telling you to rape or torture-the powers that be are exceptionally good at CYA. You’re just told to get the job done :wink, wink. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/175 "2004-05-05T21:44:42Z")
Well I’ll be honest. Every new post I read on these subjects makes me sick. Every day I want our troops out of there more. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/176 "2004-05-05T21:53:29Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Well I’ll be honest. Every new post I read on these subjects makes me sick. > > Every day I want our troops out of there more. Well, that’s why I’ve been telling friends, family, random strangers on the street, bums, cats, dogs, lampposts and even empty cardboard boxes, to vote that fucking clown Bush out before he gets us all killed. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/177 "2004-05-05T22:04:47Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh-the NFL are going to win! You memory’s going, my friend (said without a touch of Quaker). That was the NLF (National Liberation Front). But the NFL will probably win in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/178 "2004-05-05T22:33:14Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > The fact that he might still have a working trigger finger and the will to use it. There are a lot of “might” in this story. He "might have been droping a weapon which “might” have been used against an american base, and though wounded and crawling, he “might” have shot down a copter. > [@](#): > > To think otherwise merely means you’re ignorant, and to insist otherwise in the face of the facts means you’re an idiot. The only fact I face is a wounded guy crawling for cover killed by a copter’s guns. That is a fact. Your “mights” are speculations. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/179 "2004-05-05T22:36:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The only fact I face is a wounded guy crawling for cover killed by a copter’s guns. That is a fact. Your “mights” are speculations. Hate to break it to you because I feel this is the case too, but it’s not a fact. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504/180 "2004-05-05T22:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > **dropzone** You memory’s going, my friend (said without a touch of Quaker). That was the NLF (National Liberation Front). But the NFL will probably win in the long run. Shit. Mom was right about sex drugs and rock and roll destroying the brain but it’s too late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-if-the-torture-photos-werent-enough/243504.md?page=10)