# As you were, now I am. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317 "2009-03-13T11:02:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/1 "2009-03-13T11:02:53Z")
A lot of dopers have been here to criticize the last administration, and rightly so, in many cases. I hope you will welcome my presence as a primary critic of the new regime. I want you all to know that I am here for the same reason that you were, to help us have a better democracy. Quite frankly, I didn’t have much desire to defend Bush, but my feelings about Obama have gotten me very inspired. To get things started: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510166](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510166) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=509949](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=509949) I look forward to following the exploits of the Obamunist with you all. The man is a disaster. An empty suit with an ideology that will harm the world. Don’t say I didn’t tell you so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/2 "2009-03-13T11:11:26Z")
Ok then. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/3 "2009-03-13T11:15:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ok then. Glad to have a mod make it official!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/4 "2009-03-13T11:29:34Z")
Seriously, do you have a proposition for debate? So far this is nothing but partisan hackery. And yes, Bush was subjected to a lot of that, but much of it wasn’t worth arguing with back then, either. What you’ve suggested so far is: Obama is a Communist. This is a stupid idea, and when people say it I wonder what planet they live on. Most Communists wouldn’t give hundreds of billions to Wall Street. Obama is an empty suit. Same as above. There’s no particular evidence of this, but it gets said about every president. I’m not sure what the appeal is. It’s an accusation of phoniness that itself has no substance. “The man is a disaster?” Eh. Too soon to tell, and even if it’s true it would take quite a while to sort out any Obama-induced disasters from the ones that are already happening. “Will harm the world?” Same. But mostly this is based on a cartoonish depiction of Obama as a starry-eyed idealist. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/5 "2009-03-13T11:37:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Seriously, do you have a proposition for debate? So far this is nothing but partisan hackery. And yes, Bush was subjected to a lot of that, but much of it wasn’t worth arguing with back then, either. > > What you’ve suggested so far is: > > Obama is a Communist. This is a stupid idea, and when people say it I wonder what planet they live on. Most Communists wouldn’t give hundreds of billions to Wall Street. Except that the companies targeted are heavily unionized. This is more a payoff to the unions than the folks on Wall Street. > [@](#): > > Obama is an empty suit. Same as above. There’s no particular evidence of this, but it gets said about every president. I’m not sure what the appeal is. It’s an accusation of phoniness that itself has no substance. Time will tell. I don’t get the impression that the man is any more intelligent than his predecessor, but that maybe is just IMHO. > [@](#): > > “The man is a disaster?” Eh. Too soon to tell, and even if it’s true it would take quite a while to sort out any Obama-induced disasters from the ones that are already happening. I am making a statement that I feel will be borne out in due time. Perhaps I am wrong! > [@](#): > > “Will harm the world?” Same. But mostly this is based on a cartoonish depiction of Obama as a starry-eyed idealist. He has leftist credentials, which I feel are as bad for the world now as they were when Carter threw the Shah under the rug for an Islamacist regime back in the late 70’s. If you feel this thread should be moved, or terminated, that is your judgment! It won’t stop me from posting my opinions, unless I am banned for some reason, but I have never done anything to deserve that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/6 "2009-03-13T11:38:36Z")
I think your collection of vairious contentless GD OPs would have been better as a pit rant. Your debating skills do no offer much for discussion. However, as a “primary” critic, you’ll fit in just fine with the other primary critics here. Now, can we get a cleanup in aisle GD? A wet wipe, at least? ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/7 "2009-03-13T11:48:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Obama is a Communist. This is a stupid idea, and when people say it I wonder what planet they live on. Most Communists wouldn’t give hundreds of billions to Wall Street. Good question. Let’s deal with it [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10932673#post10932673) ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/8 "2009-03-13T11:51:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think your collection of vairious contentless GD OPs would have been better as a pit rant. Your debating skills do no offer much for discussion. > > However, as a “primary” critic, you’ll fit in just fine with the other primary critics here. > > Now, can we get a cleanup in aisle GD? A wet wipe, at least? Those guys are pikers. As usual, I won’t get responses from my detractors. I have been on this board long enough to see the others STFU and run away. Why should that change? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/9 "2009-03-13T11:55:55Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Those guys are pikers. As usual, I won’t get responses from my detractors. I have been on this board long enough to see the others STFU and run away. Why should that change? That may not be for the reasons you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/10 "2009-03-13T12:00:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That may not be for the reasons you think it is. If the opposition doesn’t want to stand up, or doesn’t think it worth the effort, that is not my problem! Their reasoning is not my concern. I don’t hide from the opposite viewpoint, even if I view it to be ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/11 "2009-03-13T12:02:01Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Except that the companies targeted are heavily unionized. This is more a payoff to the unions than the folks on Wall Street. I don’t buy this at all. My firsthand experience is that Communists are not at all happy with this. 😉 Linking unionized companies to Communists is totally misleading. Do you have any actual experience with them? They tend to see everything the government does as window dressing, and what you’re talking about is a fraction of the stimulus and the bailouts: when you give billions to banks that have screwed the economy and screwed the pensions of their employees, and allowed the leaders of those banks to stay in power as well, Communists are not going to approve. > [@](#): > > I don’t get the impression that the man is any more intelligent than his predecessor, but that maybe is just IMHO. Bush had a lot of stupid ideas that ended (predictably) disastrously, but people who said this was because he was dimwitted were wrong. He came off as a dimwit and it was grating to watch, but that’s a different thing. > [@](#): > > He has leftist credentials In real world terms, what does this mean? > [@](#): > > If you feel this thread should be moved, or terminated, that is your judgment! It won’t stop me from posting my opinions, unless I am banned for some reason, but I have never done anything to deserve that. Please don’t play to the crowd; you’re not being censured. My comments on your rhetorical strategy are my opinions and nothing else, but I think they’re an accurate analysis of what you’ve offered in this thread. Any decisions about your posts wouldn’t be made by me anyway, and posting empty rhetoric is not grounds for banning. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/12 "2009-03-13T12:09:20Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Time will tell. I don’t get the impression that the man is any more intelligent than his predecessor, but that maybe is just IMHO. Please. Bush was an utter incompetent. Obama is far smarter ( as is most of the population of the planet ). > [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > He has leftist credentials, which I feel are as bad for the world now as they were when Carter threw the Shah under the rug for an Islamacist regime back in the late 70’s. “Leftist” ? Not even close; he’s a moderate right winger like most Democrats. And the rise of the Islamists was in large part due to our putting the Shah in as our puppet. Carter had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/13 "2009-03-13T12:21:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t buy this at all. My firsthand experience is that Communists are not at all happy with this. 😉 Well, that gives me cheer. At least you have admitted your communist ties! Well, my communist friend, us capitalists aren’t too happy with it either, so maybe we have some common ground. > [@](#): > > Linking unionized companies to Communists is totally misleading. Do you have any actual experience with them? Well, they tried to sell me a copy of “The Weekly Worker” one time, but when I pleaded poverty they still demanded payment for the rag… > [@](#): > > They tend to see everything the government does as window dressing, and what you’re talking about is a fraction of the stimulus and the bailouts: when you give billions to banks that have screwed the economy and screwed the pensions of their employees, and allowed the leaders of those banks to stay in power as well, Communists are not going to approve. And neither are Capitalists like myself. Again, strange times make strange bedfellows, but if the Communists had their way, it would all be under state control, and as big a mess as the old Soviet Union. > [@](#): > > Bush had a lot of stupid ideas that ended (predictably) disastrously, but people who said this was because he was dimwitted were wrong. He came off as a dimwit and it was grating to watch, but that’s a different thing. And a lot of Conservatives disagreed with his policies as well. I, personally don’t think Bush was all that stupid, but he spend like a drunken sailor and got us into a war that currently is seen as a mistake. Time will tell. Truman was popularly reviled after he left office, but now historians give him good marks. It is rare that a President is judged accurately just after leaving office. > [@](#): > > In real world terms, what does this mean? It means that whatever harm was done by Bush is now being carried further by Obama, and we are seriously screwed. > [@](#): > > Please don’t play to the crowd; you’re not being censured. My comments on your rhetorical strategy are my opinions and nothing else, but I think they’re an accurate analysis of what you’ve offered in this thread. Any decisions about your posts wouldn’t be made by me anyway, and posting empty rhetoric is not grounds for banning. Hey, you are the mod, and chiming in on my thread! I accept that you are not commenting with your mod hat on, now that you say so. As far as the crowd, well, I have never had a problem with them before. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/14 "2009-03-13T12:25:30Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > And neither are Capitalists like myself. Again, strange times make strange bedfellows, but if the Communists had their way, it would all be under state control, and as big a mess as the old Soviet Union. American Communists ? What, all ten of them ? > [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Time will tell. Truman was popularly reviled after he left office, but now historians give him good marks. It is rare that a President is judged accurately just after leaving office. Most Presidents aren’t such utter disasters, not are they such obvious incompetents. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/15 "2009-03-13T12:29:00Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Well, that gives me cheer. At least you have admitted your communist ties! You can’t choose your family members. :rolleyes: In any case your attempted rhetorical flourish was, let’s say, less than honest, because I said I _knew_ Communists and you responded as if I’d admitted to _being_ a Communist. This is typical of your posts in this thread so far. > [@](#): > > And neither are Capitalists like myself. Again, strange times make strange bedfellows, but if the Communists had their way, it would all be under state control, and as big a mess as the old Soviet Union. Trust me, you don’t need to sell me on this point. > [@](#): > > Truman was popularly reviled after he left office So was Hoover. 😉 > [@](#): > > It means that whatever harm was done by Bush is now being carried further by Obama, and we are seriously screwed. Okay, so “[Obama] has leftist credentials” means ‘Obama is proposing too much spending?’ This isn’t very clear and it doesn’t sound like what you meant. Could you either detail these leftist ties or be more specific? > [@](#): > > I accept that you are not commenting with your mod hat on, now that you say so. There was no reason to assume so in the first place, but let’s just drop the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/16 "2009-03-13T13:24:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You can’t choose your family members. :rolleyes: In any case your attempted rhetorical flourish was, let’s say, less than honest, because I said I _knew_ Communists and you responded as if I’d admitted to _being_ a Communist. This is typical of your posts in this thread so far. I have known and still know a few communists myself. We keep it polite and fun, as I hope to around here. > [@](#): > > Trust me, you don’t need to sell me on this point. Fine! > [@](#): > > So was Hoover. 😉 Who wasn’t as bad as all that. He was dealt a raw hand, and did a lot of great things. > [@](#): > > Okay, so “[Obama] has leftist credentials” means ‘Obama is proposing too much spending?’ This isn’t very clear and it doesn’t sound like what you meant. Could you either detail these leftist ties or be more specific? He has associated with hard core leftists from the get-go. This is well known. I won’t bother recounting all his leftist buddies here, that has been done to death by others. I grew up in Hyde Park myself, so me and the O-man are homeboys. I know from personal observation that the whole damn place is a den of commies. I have read the editorials by Barbara Flynn Currie in the Hyde Park Herald. You can’t walk out of the Co-Op without getting handed a Marxist leaflet. I know, guilt by association. Well, for myself, I got the heck out of there. The whole place gives me a rash. > [@](#): > > There was no reason to assume so in the first place, but let’s just drop the whole thing. Hey, not here to make you an enemy. Just to make my points. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/17 "2009-03-13T13:30:21Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > He has associated with hard core leftists from the get-go. This is well known. I won’t bother recounting all his leftist buddies here, that has been done to death by others. I grew up in Hyde Park myself, so me and the O-man are homeboys. I know from personal observation that the whole damn place is a den of commies. :rolleyes: Did you recently time travel from the Cold War or something ? “Den of commies” ? As for his alleged ties to “hard core leftists”, you’ll have to show that’s true to be taken seriously despite it supposedly being “done to death by others”. His alleged ties to terrorism, status as a secret Muslim and status as the Antichrist have also done to death by others. And I don’t take them seriously, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/18 "2009-03-13T13:30:40Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > I look forward to following the exploits of the Obamunist with you all. :rolleyes: OK, you’re off to a bad start right there . . . ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/19 "2009-03-13T13:33:01Z")
I believe it’s permissible in GD to call someone’s attention to a Pit thread: [Stan Shmenge](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10932876#post10932876). ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317/20 "2009-03-13T13:34:04Z")
And just to say, the Hyde Park Co-op is a damn fine grocery store, and I mean no disrespect to it, despite the unshaven beatniks that haunt the entrance. It was better back in the day, but still beats the hell out of Dominick’s, or (shudder) Mr. G’s. Is that place still in business? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/as-you-were-now-i-am/489317.md?page=2)