# Ashes to Ashes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251 "2005-01-11T19:01:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aka\_10003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@aka\_10003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aka_10003)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/1 "2005-01-11T19:01:21Z")
The Bible, at least in Hebrew, suggests that we all turn into earth’s soil after we die. Is that simply poetic? Is it more accurate to describe it as a merge? ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/2 "2005-01-11T19:24:24Z")
After digging out an old outhouse pit a couple of years back, I had some revelations on this matter. At first, organics “merge” with the earth’s soil. After merging for a couple of years, they “turn into” soil. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, shit to dirt. It’s the Great Mandala, Charlie Brown! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/3 "2005-01-12T01:05:54Z")
I’m still trying to figure out exactly what the OP means. Dead stuff -\> decomposing -\> dirt -\>plants -\> food -\> people ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/4 "2005-01-12T05:23:24Z")
“Bury me in an apple orchard, That I may touch your lips again…” --Ed Sanders (_It Crawled Into My Hand, Honest,_ the Fugs) Dad’s ashes are on the bottom of Tampa Bay. Mom’s are on Vesper Hill at a Girl Scout camp in southern Ohio. Camp Ohio, specifically, in case your daughter goes there. Mom was a counselor there long ago. If the counselors there today are not exploiting that fact, they are missing a good scary story for the campfire. ---
**Author:** ![violet9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ea666f/32.png) [@violet9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violet9)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/5 "2005-01-12T05:35:57Z")
My best friend of 27 years just killed himself a few weeks ago - his wife gave me a tiny urn of his ashes - I’ve been wondering ever since if there’s any DNA left that could determine that the ashes are actually his. I don’t trust the funeral home - or the “disposal system.” f I’m gonna keen over a tiny, cheap little cloisone Chinese urn, I want it to contain my buddy. My friend would understand my skepticism . ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/6 "2005-01-12T12:43:41Z")
> [@violet9](#): > > I’ve been wondering ever since if there’s any DNA left that could determine that the ashes are actually his. I don’t trust the funeral home - or the “disposal system.” Does it really matter whether the “tiny, cheap little cloisone Chinese urn” contains the remains of your friend or the remains of some fine bootleg Havana cigar? We really just want to be _reminded_ of the “dearly departed”. That’s why we cremate or bury bodies, rather than letting them moulder away on the back porch (or in a rocking chair in the attic _a la_ Psycho). By all means, keen over the urn and remember your friend, but don’t obsess over whether or not the urn actually contains 100% pure buddy parts. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/7 "2005-01-12T14:09:43Z")
> [@violet9](#): > > I’ve been wondering ever since if there’s any DNA left that could determine that the ashes are actually his. The ashes are all thats left after the firey furnace of cremation. No DNA, just a mixture of chemical dust. You will have to take the word of the funeral home. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/8 "2005-01-12T20:51:16Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s why we cremate or bury bodies, rather than letting them moulder away on the back porch (or in a rocking chair in the attic a la Psycho). Ah, actually we do that because dead bodies cause disease as smell horribly as they rot. ---
**Author:** ![Roches](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc8723/32.png) [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/9 "2005-01-12T21:13:04Z")
No, there wouldn’t be any DNA, as the carbon content of the body is not largely contained in ashes. It would be difficult to identify an individual by their ashes by DNA analysis. It might be possible in some cases, as only a very small amount of DNA is required, and I suppose it would be possible that some would remain intact, without getting too graphic about where it could be found. It is possible, however, to analyze ashes to determine whether they are in fact human remains. Besides inspection of the fragments present in the ashes, the ashes can be analyzed for their calcium and phosphorus content. Bone contains these elements in characteristic proportions, and analysis of Ca and P content has been used to determine whether a sample of ashes was or was not derived from human remains. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/10 "2005-01-13T00:49:09Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > …dead bodies cause disease… Not according to the [Pan American Health Organization](http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/90-12292004-424215.html) ---
**Author:** ![violet9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ea666f/32.png) [@violet9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violet9)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/11 "2005-01-13T07:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=Roches] No, there wouldn’t be any DNA, as the carbon content of the body is not largely contained in ashes. So what on earth regulates cremation? His “disposal” cost pretty near $3500 - for What, exactly? Now Michael would object at my miserliness. This man routinely gave $50 tips to cabbies. He’d be annoyed at my interest in the bottom line rather than concentrating on the symbolism. I don’t care!!! $3,500 is $3,500 and I want someone to be accountable. Also, when you are utterly bereft - let me tell you = talkin to cheap tourist crap begins to be an acceptible alternative. This matters to me - a lot. The day he disappeared (with the intention of disappearing himself ) I was frantic to find him. I was beside myself with fear and desperation. The worst (which burned into my brain) happened. I lost him forever. All I have is this pathetic relic of the person I love. (No past tense with love) - I want it to be HIM - I want him to be where I can keep an eye on him - ("Can’t get away from me now! I know where you are every minute!) P.S. - It rattles. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/12 "2005-01-13T13:21:12Z")
Crematorium procedures are quite thorough - obviously, the survivors could sue them if it was found that remains were mishandled or mixed up. They wouldn’t get much more business, once the story got out. So it is in their best interests (and in accordance with the law in many jurisdictions) to ensure that the remains are properly identified and not confused. See [California Health & Safety Code](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/hsc/8340-8347.html) , which states in part: > [@](#): > > A crematory shall maintain an identification system allowing identification of each decedent beginning from the time the crematory accepts delivery of human remains until the point at which it releases the cremated remains to a third party. After cremation, an identifying disk, tab, or other permanent label shall be placed within the urn or cremated remains container before the cremated remains are released from the crematory. Each identification disk, tab, or label shall have a unique number that shall be recorded on all paperwork regarding the decedent’s case and in the crematory log. > > Each crematory shall maintain a written procedure for identification of remains. The identification label placed by the crematorium might be removed from the “cremated remains container” by the funeral home that receives the ashes, and the information transferred to an engraving or other identifier before you receive the ashes. According to several websites, after cremation there are some larger pieces of bone that are not reduced to ash. These are ground up and placed in the urn/container so that they can be scattered or interred along with the ashes. I don’t know if heated bone (without marrow) would contain enough DNA to allow positive identification of the ash/bone mixture - perhaps one of our more DNA-savvy Dopers can give a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/13 "2005-01-13T17:28:27Z")
If my Biology teacher wasn’t simplifying too much, then soil is mostly worm poo, and that is what we end up as after the bacteria do their thing and the worms do theirs. Just worm poo to worm poo doesn’t sound as quaint as ashes to ashes. ---
**Author:** ![violet9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ea666f/32.png) [@violet9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violet9)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/14 "2005-01-13T21:17:21Z")
Savage - Michael would have chuckled over your “buddy parts” comment - that’s just the sort of word play he loved. Thanks Savage & Roche for your intelligent and informative replies. I do hope there is an identifyer in the urn, but I doubt it. It’s very small. Does anyone have an idea of how I can label it in as permanent a way as possible? The bottom is glass enamel over brass, and is only abt #1 in diam. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/15 "2005-01-14T00:13:47Z")
From the link: > [@](#): > > There is no danger of corpses contaminating water or soil because bacteria and viruses cannot survive in dead bodies I really, REALLY, don’t believe this. Many of the bodies’ own germs will die, but it’s fairly well established that vast quantities of rotting matter cause disease. Moreover, what, exactly, do they think causes them to rot in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/16 "2005-01-14T02:23:35Z")
I think that the main danger from disease is due to rats, bugs and other vermin eating the corpses. The corpses themselves won’t spead disease, but the critters that they’ll attract can and do. If I may say so, the Pan American Health Organization is being somewhat disingenuous here. They want the people who died in the tsunami to be left unburied so they can try to identify everybody. Personally, I think that they’re asking a bit much of the survivors when they ask them to live with mountains of dead bodies for months or years to come. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/17 "2005-01-14T12:25:03Z")
> [@violet9](#): > > I do hope there is an identifyer in the urn, but I doubt it. It’s very small. Does anyone have an idea of how I can label it in as permanent a way as possible? The bottom is glass enamel over brass, and is only abt #1 in diam. From your OP, I understand that what you were given is a small portion of the ashes; that being the case, I doubt the identifier (if there is one) would be in your portion. There are several options that you could explore: you could put the little urn inside a larger, fancy container (a box?) that is labelled or engraved as you like. You could transfer the contents to a new urn that was pre-engraved with an inscription. You could even leave instructions in your will asking that, on your death, you be cremated and have his small urn placed inside yours (not “co-mingling” the ashes, but evidently permitted if requested in advance), and then the larger urn could be labelled or engraved appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/18 "2005-01-14T21:12:13Z")
Talk about timing! I just saw an item on the Discovery Channel about crematory workers, and the woman being interviewed said that she wanted to be cremated, and her remains placed in a clear lucite container “with confetti and glitter, so that I will be festive, even in death.” I thought that was an interesting idea. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/19 "2005-01-16T00:56:59Z")
> [@SavageNarce](#): > > I just saw an item on the Discovery Channel about crematory workers,… A crematory operator in GA was grossly negligent in his operation. Left bodies in caskets, boxes, and in the open. Several hundred in all from GA and surrounding states. Sent cement dust in the urns etc. back to the Furneral Homes. Finally caught, prosecuted and IIRC he received about 10 or 20 years total. Should have been per departed loved one IMHO. At several funerals/memorial services the ashes were in some sort of plastic like container about 1-1/2 to 2 gallon in size. Today I was at a memorial service where the departed photo was on a projection screen and the ashes/cremains were in a bronze urn of about 1 pint or 250 ml. Does anyone know the volume of these urns? ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251/20 "2005-01-16T03:10:51Z")
From the sites that sell crematory urns, somewhere around 210 cubic inches seems to be the “average adult” urn size. The crematorium sites that I searched earlier have instructions on what to do if the volume of ash is greater or less than the urn capacity. [This site](http://www.urnseller.com/) sells all sizes, including smaller urns for sharing the ashes among family members. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashes-to-ashes/284251.md?page=2)