# Ashli Babbitt's family sues for wrongful death **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722 "2024-01-07T01:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/1 "2024-01-07T01:52:40Z")
Three years after the death of Capitol rioter Ashli Babbitt, her family has initiated a lawsuit for $30M claiming wrongful death. > **[Ashli Babbitt's family files $30 million lawsuit over Jan. 6 shooting death](https://www.yahoo.com/news/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-u-020558119.html)** > > Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed while she tried to climb through a broken door into the Speaker's Lobby outside the House Chamber. I don’t think this has a chance in a million of success. IANAL, but I understand there is a basic principle of law that says you can’t sue if you suffer an injury while committing a wrongful act. > **[Ex turpi causa non oritur actio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_turpi_causa_non_oritur_actio)** > > Ex turpi causa non oritur actio (Latin "from a dishonorable cause an action does not arise") is a legal doctrine which states that a plaintiff will be unable to pursue legal relief and damages if it arises in connection with their own tortious act. Particularly relevant in the law of contract, tort and trusts, ex turpi causa is also known as the illegality defence, since a defendant may plead that even though, for instance, he broke a contract, conducted himself negligently or broke an equi In th... _In the law of [tort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort), the principle would prevent a criminal from bringing a claim against (for example) a fellow criminal. In [National Coal Board v England](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Coal_Board_v_England&action=edit&redlink=1),[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_turpi_causa_non_oritur_actio#cite_note-5) [Lord Asquith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Asquith,_Baron_Asquith_of_Bishopstone) said,_ _\> If two burglars, A and B, agree to open a safe by means of explosives, and A so negligently handles the explosive charge as to injure B, B might find some difficulty in maintaining an action for negligence against A._ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/2 "2024-01-07T02:02:10Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I understand there is a basic principle of law that says you can’t sue if you suffer an injury while committing a wrongful act. IANAL but your interpretation of this principle cannot be correct, since that would imply that a cop could never be sued for using excessive force against a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/3 "2024-01-07T02:16:33Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t think this has a chance in a million of success. Since they waited an astonishing three years to bring this lawsuit I can only think this is politically motivated and they hope to make it an issue in the upcoming elections. A cause célèbre. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/4 "2024-01-07T02:19:07Z")
I don’t think so. That’s basically the same claim Trump is making about all the legal troubles he’s having. It takes time to get a lawsuit started. It could take three years to find a shyster willing to take the case, while many others turned them down. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/5 "2024-01-07T02:19:31Z")
This is just a bit of red meat thrown out to rile up the ultra right. She died a traitor’s death and her family has no business to try to make money off of her treachery. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/6 "2024-01-07T02:20:09Z")
If they lose it is just proof that the deep state is working against them (to MAGAts). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/7 "2024-01-07T04:19:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is just a bit of red meat thrown out to rile up the ultra right. She died a traitor’s death and her family has no business to try to make money off of her treachery. Not only is it red meat, it’s also an attempt at getting the US Air Force to “admit their mistake” in denying that traitor a military funeral. And the Air Force did not make a mistake, so their continued denial i more chum for the scum who support Trump. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/8 "2024-01-07T04:32:33Z")
Even if there _were_ a legitimate claim, it should be against the America-hating fuckstick. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/9 "2024-01-07T09:58:11Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > IANAL but your interpretation of this principle cannot be correct, since that would imply that a cop could never be sued for using excessive force against a criminal. A cop charged with guarding Congress was confronting a mob breaking down the doors with nothing more than a handgun. People in the mob noticed the gun and were shouting the cop had a gun. The cop shouted back that he would shoot anyone coming through the door. Babbitt who, I dunno, maybe thought she had Plot Armor, started to climb through the hole in the door. The cop fired one shot. Just one, unlike some recent incidents where cops unloaded entire magazines on someone. Seems to me the cop used exactly the force required to stop the advancing mob and no more. (The above is based on raw video from a person in the mob shooting said video - the version I saw was completely unedited, including showing spurting blood and everything.) I don’t see excessive force there. If someone has a gun and says “if you come through that door I’ll shoot you” and you go through that door you are are _stupid_. Not a victim. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/10 "2024-01-07T10:07:50Z")
Even three years after her death, the poor misguided woman is being used as a political prop. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/11 "2024-01-07T11:56:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t see excessive force there. I don’t think that was the point. I believe the point was that if you can’t sue someone for an injury caused during the commission of a crime, then for example a person couldn’t sue a cop if that cop caused an injury due to use of excessive force in response to a crime, but those lawsuits do happen in the US. It wasn’t saying that **this** was a case where that happened. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > IANAL, but I understand there is a basic principle of law that says you can’t sue if you suffer an injury while committing a wrongful act. It’s worth noting that the article you linked to is about a principle of law in _the United Kingdom_. I am also not a lawyer but just Googling whether you can sue if injured while committing a crime brings up web sites for legal firms where they suggest that in the US you can. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/12 "2024-01-07T12:49:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since they waited an astonishing three years to bring this lawsuit I can only think this is politically motivated and they hope to make it an issue in the upcoming elections. A cause célèbre. Let them. I welcome this lawsuit, because I’m as near to certain as I can be that this will be yet another massive, public slap-down of MAGA stupidity. A clear ruling that this shooting was justified because she was, literally, physically leading an attack on Congress would be a gift to the anti-MAGA forces. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/13 "2024-01-07T12:57:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > (The above is based on raw video from a person in the mob shooting said video - the version I saw was completely unedited, including showing spurting blood and everything.) I’m picturing the prosecution being just an homage to this scene: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/4t2qOTKOWlY/maxresdefault.jpg "Jimmy Tries To Defend Teens Who Broke Into A Morgue | Uno | Better Call Saul") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t2qOTKOWlY&t=133) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/14 "2024-01-07T13:19:38Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > IANAL, but I understand there is a basic principle of law that says you can’t sue if you suffer an injury while committing a wrongful act. Ashli Babbitt isn’t suing. She’s dead. The family is suing for damages suffered _by them_ as a result of Ashli no longer being among them. That doesn’t sound likely to be successful, but I don’t think that principle applies here, since the family members aren’t (AFAIK) accused of being at the Capitol. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/15 "2024-01-07T14:21:56Z")
Did she have insurance and did her family try to collect on that first? If not, why not if they thought that she was a victum of an illegal shooting? Wait, I’ll tell you . . . it’s becasue insurance doesn’t cover people who are in injured in the act of commiting a crime and they know it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/16 "2024-01-07T16:40:44Z")
In civil law there’s a concept called [contributory negligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributory_negligence): > _contributory negligence_\* is a [defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_(legal)) to a [tort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort) claim based on [negligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence). If it is available, the defense completely bars [plaintiffs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintiffs) from any recovery if they contribute to their own injury through their own negligence.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributory_negligence#cite_note-Cornell18-1) > > Because the contributory negligence doctrine can lead to harsh results, many common law jurisdictions have abolished it in favor of a “comparative fault” or “comparative negligence” approach.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributory_negligence#cite_note-Cornell18-1) A [comparative negligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_negligence) approach reduces the plaintiff’s damages award by the percentage of fault the fact-finder assigns to the plaintiff for their own injury.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributory_negligence#cite_note-cornellcomp-2) For example, if a jury thinks the plaintiff is 30% at fault, the plaintiff’s damages award will be reduced by 30%. This looks like a slamdunk defense of contributory negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/17 "2024-01-07T17:22:51Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Ashli Babbitt isn’t suing. She’s dead. The family is suing for damages suffered _by them_ as a result of Ashli no longer being among them. That doesn’t sound likely to be successful, but I don’t think that principle applies here, since the family members aren’t (AFAIK) accused of being at the Capitol. But I’m still pretty sure that legal principle cannot be correct as stated. Suppose a hypothetical victim of hypothetical police misconduct _is_ still alive, surely the fact they were committing a crime when the police committed a worse crime that seriously harmed them doesn’t prohibit a civil lawsuit? (For the avoidance of doubt, I’m just trying to understand the legal principle here, not remotely suggesting that in this case there was any misconduct on the part of the agent who killed Babbitt.) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/18 "2024-01-07T17:26:37Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > This looks like a slamdunk defense of contributory negligence. I haven’t looked at the jurisdiction where this was filed, but it’s almost certain that contributory negligence is not a complete defense barring recovery. However, it likely will be part of the case. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > For example, if a jury thinks the plaintiff is 30% at fault, the plaintiff’s damages award will be reduced by 30%. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/19 "2024-01-07T17:28:06Z")
If we set politics aside (since 90% of analysis about the Babbitt shooting is usually “It’s okay when my side does it, but not when they do it,”) then, as someone pointed out above, this all comes down to whether a cop shooting an unarmed (but doing illegal-things) person is justified. If we apply this logic to other situations, then it should be fair game for cops to open fire on all kinds of crooks who may not be carrying a weapon but nonetheless are still committing crimes and are advancing towards the cop and may use their bare hands to attack. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/20 "2024-01-07T17:29:52Z")
I bow to your judgment as a real lawyer. But I find it hard to believe that any rational jury could watch the video of her shooting, in the context of that day, and find her anything but 100 percent at fault. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if the suit doesn’t make it past summary judgment. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722.md?page=2)