# Ashli Babbitt's family sues for wrongful death **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722 "2024-01-07T01:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/21 "2024-01-07T17:32:18Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if the suit doesn’t make it past summary judgment. Agreed. And agree that a jury might very well find her 100% at fault. (I do). I was just trying to point out that the law in this area has evolved. In the old days, a plaintiff who was even 1% at fault was barred from recovery. Some places changed it to 50% or more. Now it’s usually “pure” comparative fault, where a plaintiff is not barred for any fault less than 100%, their recovery is just reduced. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/22 "2024-01-07T17:33:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If we set politics aside (since 90% of analysis about the Babbitt shooting is usually “It’s okay when my side does it, but not when they do it,”) then, as someone pointed out above, this all comes down to whether a cop shooting an unarmed (but doing illegal-things) person is justified. That’s a gross oversimplification of the situation we’re considering, which was a massive, violent assault where people were justifiably in fear of their lives. I’ll condemn it when the Dems overrun the Capitol, and I have no fear that dismissing this bullshit lawsuit pushes us down a slippery slope where cops are free to open fire on jaywalkers. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/23 "2024-01-07T17:34:21Z")
In this case, where the context was an insurrection/riot/violent invasion of the Capitol, and Babbitt was about to lead a mob through a smashed window in a door stopping the invaders from getting to the legislators, I’d call the use of force applied justified and appropriate. It sure did stop the mob from going any farther. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/24 "2024-01-07T17:40:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If we set politics aside (since 90% of analysis about the Babbitt shooting is usually “It’s okay when my side does it, but not when they do it,”) then, as someone pointed out above, this all comes down to whether a cop shooting an unarmed (but doing illegal-things) person is justified. I’m usually not on the side of police shooting people, but I’ve often thought they should have shot the first ones breaking through the perimeter. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/25 "2024-01-07T17:42:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If we apply this logic to other situations, then it should be fair game for cops to open fire on all kinds of crooks who may not be carrying a weapon but nonetheless are still committing crimes and are advancing towards the cop and may use their bare hands to attack. What does “fair game” mean? Are you suggesting police currently don’t kill people in self-defense, or are you suggesting that they shouldn’t ever have to answer questions about why they do? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/26 "2024-01-07T17:48:17Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’m usually not on the side of police shooting people, but I’ve often thought they should have shot the first ones breaking through the perimeter. Heck, as I watched it unfold live on TV I kept asking, why? Why haven’t they shot into the mob? Were they under orders, standing or ad hoc, not to use lethal force? Was the concern that the mob was so large and revved up that it would have become even more aggressive in overwhelming the defenders? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/27 "2024-01-07T17:48:57Z")
“Poor.” No. She has agency. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/28 "2024-01-07T17:50:52Z")
I think he’s saying that this wasn’t really self defense. If you take the whole mob out of the equation (bear with me) and an unarmed woman was trying to break into the capital, we wouldn’t expect shooting her to be “fair game.” There would be other ways to detain her and/or deescalate the situation. We’re all, generally, making an exception for the circumstances. It wasn’t self defense for an individual cop, it was military-style perimeter defense. Different rules of engagement. While personally this feels right to me, maybe the law sees different. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/29 "2024-01-07T18:18:00Z")
I choose to believe that she was deeply under the influence of a toxic ideology, and therefore her agency to make a smart choice was much diminished. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/30 "2024-01-07T18:20:45Z")
You can say that exact same thing about Susan Atkins, Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/31 "2024-01-07T18:25:25Z")
And do. That’s not to excuse them, but I’d buy some type of “diminished capacity.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/32 "2024-01-07T18:31:42Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I choose to believe that she was deeply under the influence of a toxic ideology, and therefore her agency to make a smart choice was much diminished. But isn’t she the agent who made any such choice to so diminish? If I slip some vodka into your glass of milk before you then start making bad decisions, I get how you can talk about my agency — but if you scrutinize the bottle of hundred-proof vodka while measuring out the amount you pour into the glass of milk you then drink, isn’t that your agency? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/33 "2024-01-07T18:55:40Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Let them. I welcome this lawsuit, because I’m as near to certain as I can be that this will be yet another massive, public slap-down of MAGA stupidity. To you and me…absolutely. But MAGA will not see it that way. This is meant to rile up that base and get them anxious to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/34 "2024-01-07T19:23:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But I’m still pretty sure that legal principle cannot be correct as stated. And to reiterate, the OP cited a legal principle from the UK (and a specific case in the UK) and tried to apply it to a situation in Washington DC. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/35 "2024-01-07T19:31:15Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > And to reiterate, the OP cited a legal principle from the UK (and a specific case in the UK) and tried to apply it to a situation in Washington DC. I got that, but it seems counter to any intuitive sense of justice. Would that interpretation of the principle be correct in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/36 "2024-01-07T19:34:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I think he’s saying that this wasn’t really self defense. If you take the whole mob out of the equation (bear with me) and an unarmed woman was trying to break into the capital, ??? Not sure how you can say this, given that he pretty clearly stipulated a self-defense scenario (just with no visible weapon): > [@Velocity](#): > > crooks who may not be carrying a weapon but nonetheless are still committing crimes and are advancing towards the cop and may use their bare hands to attack. Police kill people all the time under this scenario. There’s usually an internal investigation, it rarely leads to charges, and if there is a charge the cop is usually acquitted. These people are absolutely fair game; I don’t understand how anyone could think otherwise. Hence my question. > [@steronz](#): > > It wasn’t self defense for an individual cop, it was military-style perimeter defense. Different rules of engagement. Hell no. This is absurd for 2 reasons: 1. Military rules of engagement are _much_ more strict. Most cops would very quickly catch criminal charges if they had to operate under military ROE for more than a week. 2. ROE doesn’t magically change because you have 10 or 100 criminals attacking instead of just one. Capitol Police showed more restraint than required. An angry, violent mob had refused orders to disperse, they were threatening police and members of Congress, and they were actively breaking through the only physical barrier protecting them from the mob. Officer Byrd would have been justified to fire his entire magazine into the breach, but he only fired one shot (to my knowledge) and killed one criminal, causing the rest to disperse without further violence. By doing so he saved many lives of both criminals and law-abiding civilians as well, and anyone suggesting otherwise simply is not aware of events. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/37 "2024-01-07T20:00:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Police kill people all the time under this scenario. There’s usually an internal investigation, it rarely leads to charges, and if there is a charge the cop is usually acquitted. These people are absolutely fair game; I don’t understand how anyone could think otherwise. Hence my question. I dunno, do you remember Michael Brown? “Hands up don’t shoot”? I mean, yes, no charges were brought, but there were factors present in that shooting beyond what Velocity stipulated, e.g. the fact that the officer in question had already been wounded with his own gun. I don’t take it as a given that advancing towards a police officer with hands as weapons while committing a crime is alone justification for self defense. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Officer Byrd would have been justified to fire his entire magazine into the breach This seems to contradict the rest of your post and agree with what I’m saying. Someone standing in that crowd in the stairwell, holding their cell phone to record video, who hadn’t made any specific threats of violence, wasn’t trying to break into the hallway or advance towards officers, unarmed, who hadn’t made any specific threats towards anyone… you’re saying they could justifiably have caught a bullet in the name of self defense? Let’s say a group of my friends break into a toy store and the cops show up. My friend Tony gets into a fistfight with one of the cops out front while shouting ACAB and is detained. Meanwhile I run to the back of the store where an officer has entered the back door. I’m unarmed, criminally trespassing after breaking and entering, approaching the officer and disregarding his orders to stop advancing towards him. He does not see a weapon or have any reason to suspect I’m armed. He shoots anyway. Self defense? I’m quite skeptical, and as a citizen, I don’t want cops to shoot in that situation. It’s a toy store. The capitol? It’s different. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/38 "2024-01-07T20:13:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Let’s say a group of my friends break into a toy store and the cops show up. I think defending the capitol and the congresspeople inside is a very different thing than just you and a toy store. For instance, Secret Service defending the president will absolutely shoot you if you continue to approach (unarmed or not). Capitol police aren’t quite so quick to shoot but defending the building and its occupants is taken more seriously than defending toys. Not to mention the context. It is not just you advancing, you are part of a whole mob that is advancing and swirling around the place. I think that changes the calculus too. Trying to discern the “peaceful” members of the mob from the violent ones is not really possible. We often hear MAGA-types defending police officers when they kill a minority by saying if the person had only followed police orders and not been breaking the law they would be alive. Rules for thee but not for me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/39 "2024-01-07T20:19:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We often hear MAGA-types defending police officers when they kill a minority by saying if the person had only followed police orders and not been breaking the law they would be alive. Rules for thee but not for me For what it’s worth, I’ll apply that consistency here and now! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/40 "2024-01-07T20:21:37Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I dunno, do you remember Michael Brown? “Hands up don’t shoot”? I mean, yes, no charges were brought, Then what is the point of mentioning the anecdote? This was the exception, by far not the rule. > [@steronz](#): > > Someone standing in that crowd in the stairwell, holding their cell phone to record video, who hadn’t made any specific threats of violence, wasn’t trying to break into the hallway or advance towards officers, unarmed, who hadn’t made any specific threats towards anyone… you’re saying they could justifiably have caught a bullet in the name of self defense? I don’t think any jury would rule that this person’s rights were violated in any fashion. They weren’t showing press credentials, they were part of a mob that already committed assault, refused to leave a place they had no right to be, and were threatening more violence. Under those conditions you’re not an innocent bystander. I’m glad more lives weren’t lost, but I wouldn’t convict any policeman for emptying his magazine into that door. > [@steronz](#): > > I don’t take it as a given that advancing towards a police officer with hands as weapons while committing a crime is alone justification for self defense. Is that what we’re talking about? I know Velocity had some idea about “fair game” and I am aware that cops shoot people all the time under this scenario. I also know that this _alone_ is not what the J6 rioters were doing. > [@steronz](#): > > I’m unarmed, criminally trespassing after breaking and entering, approaching the officer and disregarding his orders to stop advancing towards him. He does not see a weapon or have any reason to suspect I’m armed. He shoots anyway. Self defense? It depends on many factors. Did the cop order the intruder to stop, did the intruder follow instructions, did the cop have reason to fear for his life? All of this tip the scales toward justifiable self-defence; all of these applied to the J6 mob. But more broadly than that, cops kill people for less than this all the time, and get away with it. I don’t understand how someone could feel suspects could be more “fair game” than they already are, and that’s my question to Velocity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722.md?page=3)