# Ashli Babbitt's family sues for wrongful death **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722 "2024-01-07T01:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/41 "2024-01-07T20:25:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not to mention the context. It is not just you advancing, you are part of a whole mob that is advancing and swirling around the place. I think that changes the calculus too. Trying to discern the “peaceful” members of the mob from the violent ones is not really possible. Exactly. It was a mob with obvious violent intent. If somebody tags along just for the lulz, he may well catch a bullet as a result of that shitty decision. And the LEO firing into the breach can’t be held accountable for somehow not determining who was there to murder someone and who was there just for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/42 "2024-01-07T20:27:40Z")
I am certainly no lawyer, but am I wrong to see another issue here, besides self defence—defence of other innocent victims. The mob led by Ashli. Babbit was not attacking the cop–they were attacking the congressmen. Unlike the example above (about a cop in a toy store), the cop was not facing one person who was committing theft. The cop’s job was not to prevent a property crime, or stop a trespasser. His job was to defend the intended victims from a mob. I hope that the rules of engagement for opening fire take that into account. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/43 "2024-01-07T20:29:30Z")
If that unarmed person is backed up by a large, violent crowd that has already breeched several layers of active and passive defenses, and is currently trying to breech the last such line of defense, then yeah, sure, let’s establish the principle that it’s okay to shoot them in this case. Context still matters. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/44 "2024-01-07T20:33:29Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Let’s say a group of my friends break into a toy store and the cops show up. My friend Tony gets into a fistfight with one of the cops out front while shouting ACAB and is detained. Meanwhile I run to the back of the store where an officer has entered the back door. I’m unarmed, criminally trespassing after breaking and entering, approaching the officer and disregarding his orders to stop advancing towards him. He does not see a weapon or have any reason to suspect I’m armed. He shoots anyway. Self defense? It would be analogous if all of you had already been violent previously, all of you were running at that cop and there were innocent people on the other side of the door that you were planning on lynching. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/45 "2024-01-07T20:37:22Z")
And she wasn’t just ‘part of a mob’, she was literally the leading element of that mob. It probably took quite some effort on her part to end up in the position she was in when she was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/46 "2024-01-07T20:41:26Z")
Yep, she was the point of the spear, and she experienced the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/47 "2024-01-07T20:45:21Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yep, she was the point of the spear, and she experienced the consequences. - She got blunted. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/48 "2024-01-07T20:58:15Z")
Yep, she did. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/49 "2024-01-07T20:59:28Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yep, she was the point of the spear After she was shot there was no point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/50 "2024-01-07T21:06:45Z")
So who got the shaft? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/51 "2024-01-07T21:16:10Z")
The American people. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/52 "2024-01-07T21:29:34Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > did the cop have reason to fear for his life And worth noting that here the cop’s specific designated role was to protect others. I think the reasonable conditions for use of lethal force change considerably - the question of whether the cop had an available option to retreat to protect _himself_ is not his principal consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/53 "2024-01-07T22:02:38Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > And she wasn’t just ‘part of a mob’, she was literally the leading element of that mob. I don’t think she was any kind of leader, just the first one through the window. Another thing, there have been cases where criminals have been shot dead by police, and their partners in crime have been convicted of felony murder. Why hasn’t this happened here? The people who broke the glass, and the people who helped raise Ashli Babbitt to climb through the window were all participants in a crime where someone died. Why haven’t they been charged with her murder? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/54 "2024-01-07T22:03:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Why hasn’t this happened here? I don’t think the statute applies when the police kill an accomplice. I think the felony murder statute has been (dubiously) applied when the police accidentally kill an innocent bystander? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/55 "2024-01-07T22:18:29Z")
Not correct. Here’s an example. > **[In the US, you don't have to kill to be a murderer](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43673331)** > > Police shot dead a burglary suspect, but his 15-year-old accomplice will go to prison for the murder. > **[Convicted of murder, but a police officer pulled the trigger](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/convicted-of-murder-but-a-police-officer-pulled-the-trigger)** > > In 2015, an Alabama police officer shot and killed a teenager burglarizing a home. While the officer was cleared, four other teens who were involved in the crime were all charged with their friend’s murder. But how can that be? NewsHour’s Megan... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/56 "2024-01-07T22:22:33Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t think she was any kind of leader, just the first one through the window. I wondered about this too. I have seen nothing to suggest she was organizing or a ringleader but was just the first one in. (But I really do not know and I do not think it changes much as regards the case in the OP. I doubt the officer that shot her had identified her as the leader and so was a better target to stop the overall incursion.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/57 "2024-01-07T22:32:05Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Not correct. Here’s an example. That’s horrifying. Does anyone really think this is justice? So you’re completely right - what a shock that felony murder is being selectively applied against young Black men. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/58 "2024-01-07T22:34:47Z")
I agree, that use of felony murder seems horrible and very, very wrong. I’d go on but not here. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/59 "2024-01-07T22:49:01Z")
That’s just one of many times the law has been applied, and the people charged are frequently white. For simplified explanation of how the law works, see The Illustrated Guide to Law. It’s written by an actual experienced criminal lawyer. It’s in comic strip form, and simplified so that people without legal training can understand it. [Here’s the section](https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1274) on the law of homicide [And here’](https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1310)s an explanation of the law when an accomplice dies. This is the law, it isn’t just used against black people. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722/60 "2024-01-07T23:02:46Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t think she was any kind of leader, just the first one through the window. I meant, she was actually _physically_ in the lead. She wasn’t just hanging out in the middle of the crowd having fun running around the place. She had to have made particular efforts to be on the leading edge of the attack. Had she made it through that window, she’d have been the first to attack the people on the other side, and provide some cover for others to make it into that room. She was leading the van, which is usually considered a position of honor. It’s also usually quite dangerous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ashli-babbitts-family-sues-for-wrongful-death/995722.md?page=4)