# Asian American groups accuse Harvard of racial bias in admissions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183 "2015-05-16T17:34:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/241 "2015-05-19T16:33:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure this is accurate for the fantasy-liberals inside your mind, but I don’t see what it has to do with me or anyone in the real world. You do note the part where you said that discrimination based on race wasn’t racial discrimination, yes? I mean, I think that **Haberdash** went a bit overboard, but the pro-AA side is doing the same thing for the same reasons as the anti-Semites who didn’t want too many Jews upsetting the holistic racial balance of the Ivy League around the turn of the century. Either you’re advocating racial discrimination, or they weren’t back then. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/242 "2015-05-19T16:36:39Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > the pro-AA side is doing the same thing for the same reasons as the anti-Semites who didn’t want too many Jews upsetting the holistic racial balance of the Ivy League around the turn of the century. Either you’re advocating racial discrimination, or they weren’t back then. Well, as we know, Jews are significantly over-represented among high-scorers, high-achievers, in prestigious universities, in income and other financial indicators, etc. Therefore it would be racist NOT to discriminate against them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/243 "2015-05-19T16:47:34Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > You do note the part where you said that discrimination based on race wasn’t racial discrimination, yes? No, I didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/244 "2015-05-19T16:49:24Z")
It can’t be the case that “Harvard doesn’t discriminate against Asians” and “it’s good for them to discriminate against Asians.” The pro-racism argument in this thread is incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/245 "2015-05-19T16:50:35Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The pro-racism argument in this thread is incoherent. I’ve noticed that pretty much all pro-racism arguments are incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/246 "2015-05-19T16:57:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Only if you see it from the perspective that AA is racial discrimination. If you see it as making up for (in an imperfect way) some of the discrimination and bias inherent in society today, then it’s quite different. Dude, you said it right there. You’re saying that racial discrimination in admissions is quite different than racial discrimination. Now, you might mean that racial discrimination is good when it’s preserving the diversity of the Ivy League schools from those pesky [strike]Jews[/strike] Asians and not otherwise, but that is what you are saying. You are saying that it is a good thing that a school is going “OK, you people of this race! It’s not that we don’t like you in small numbers, but what we really want are students of this race over here, so we’ll take them over you when you are otherwise equal scholars!” This is goddamn surreal. Racial discrimination is discrimination based on race. It does not magically stop being racial discrimination because you think it’s for a good cause. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/247 "2015-05-19T17:00:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The Asians are, for both questions. “Asians are selfish” – the attribution of negative characteristics to an entire race – is not racist according to you, I presume? > [@](#): > > I think its perfectly fine to have racial quotas (ie. Affirmative Action) to get groups that would otherwise be underrepresented into tops schools. The beneficiaries of the Asian quota at Harvard are rich white people. > [@](#): > > So after a period of benefiting from affirmative action, now this group of them wants to eliminate it. Its selfish At what point in time do you believe there was affirmative action in favor of Asians at Harvard? > [@](#): > > Anyone can just claim that “getting rid of racial bias” is what they’re trying to do. Especially those who are correct in making that claim. > [@](#): > > You should not ask the question of why banning racial considerations is racist. That’s a poor paraphrase of what’s actually happening. Instead, I challenge you to ask why it was necessary in the first place and how have those conditions changed to be counter-productive to the original goal of having a racially diverse campus. When the goal of “having a racially diverse campus” only arose after Harvard noticed Asians taking spots that used to go to whites, and is implemented in a manner that changes on an annual basis to achieve the end of creating a formula that caps Asian enrollment, then it becomes as hollow as “holistic criteria.” ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/248 "2015-05-19T17:01:04Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > This is goddamn surreal. Racial discrimination is discrimination based on race. It does not magically stop being racial discrimination because you think it’s for a good cause. But only the other people can do The Bad Thing! No good leftist can do The Bad Thing, therefore it’s not racist when he supports it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/249 "2015-05-19T17:02:12Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Dude, you said it right there. No I didn’t. Still don’t know what words/phrases you’re referring to in my post. > [@](#): > > You’re saying that racial discrimination in admissions is quite different than racial discrimination. No, I said that AA is not necessarily racial discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/250 "2015-05-19T17:03:55Z")
I believe we’re having this discussion in English. If you’d like to use idiosyncratic definitions of words, you’ll have to share them with the rest of the class. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/251 "2015-05-19T17:08:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So after a period of benefiting from affirmative action, now this group of them wants to eliminate it. Its selfish When did Asians benefit from affirmative action? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/252 "2015-05-19T17:09:18Z")
I’ll go on the record of opposing quotas while being for Affirmative Action, in general. I think racial quotas are, in fact, racial discrimination (and I don’t think Affirmative Action is). I thought I was clear that I was speaking of Affirmative Action, and not racial quotas. If this was unclear, I apologize deeply. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/253 "2015-05-19T17:10:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve noticed that pretty much all pro-racism arguments are incoherent. I guess so. See post #240. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/254 "2015-05-19T17:18:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m certainly open to the possibility that modern society discriminates against Asians in such a way that makes it more difficult for them to succeed than white people (or others). But the facts that, according to statistics that I’ve seen, Asians are significantly over-represented among high-scorers, high-achievers, in prestigious universities, in income and other financial indicators, etc., are indications that they are not discriminated against significantly in terms of educational opportunity, from what I understand. “Over-represented” and “discriminated against” aren’t mutually exclusive. African-Americans are overrepresented in the NBA. If the NBA were to institute a policy, “African-Americans must jump 10% higher and run 10% faster than Asians in order to get into the NBA,” chances are the NBA would still be predominantly black. But it would be discrimination. Same for university admissions. Asian-Americans are overrepresented at elite U.S. universities. And yet Asian-Americans have to score higher on standardized testing than other racial groups. It’s discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/255 "2015-05-19T17:19:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll go on the record of opposing quotas while being for Affirmative Action, in general. I think racial quotas are, in fact, racial discrimination (and I don’t think Affirmative Action is). > > I thought I was clear that I was speaking of Affirmative Action, and not racial quotas. If this was unclear, I apologize deeply. Yeah - sorry, I thought you were supporting quotas - I get it. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/256 "2015-05-19T17:28:37Z")
Ultimately, what causes everyone to fight about AA/merit is that you can only fit so many people into a population of 100%. Increase one race’s representation by 5% and other races are bound to take a hit. Its a zero sum situation. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/257 "2015-05-19T17:37:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Same for university admissions. Asian-Americans are overrepresented at elite U.S. universities. And yet Asian-Americans have to score higher on standardized testing than other racial groups. It’s discrimination. It would be discrimination if it were true. It isn’t. It’s a specious claim that is one of the weaknesses of their case. The reality is that everyone admitted to Harvard has to have high test scores – that’s the minimal condition to even be considered. There are enormous numbers of other standards and criteria that are applied on top of the minimal requirements. It turns out that when all those criteria are applied, the Asians who end up getting admitted have higher test scores than the average. As I already said, _Grutter v. Bollinger_ determined in 2003 that such an outcome is neither discrimination nor any kind of “thinly veiled quota system”. And comparisons with anti-Semitism in the 1920s is not just specious but downright absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/258 "2015-05-19T17:43:18Z")
Grutter found that using a racial multiplier is legal. That doesn’t address your claim that Harvard uses no racial multiplier, or any claim about whether it’s moral. It’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/259 "2015-05-19T17:44:21Z")
And it’s comparable because, unlike any argument for “rectifying past discrimination” by applying racial multipliers to benefit blacks, the Harvard system’s intent and effect is to handicap a racial minority for the benefit of rich whites. It’s much closer to the Jewish quota than the Michigan system. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/260 "2015-05-19T17:47:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It would be discrimination if it were true. It isn’t. It’s a specious claim that is one of the weaknesses of their case. The reality is that everyone admitted to Harvard has to have high test scores – that’s the minimal condition to even be considered. And it’s just a coincidence that in order to be admitted, statistically, Asians have to score [450 more points](http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf) on SAT than blacks, right? > [@](#): > > There are enormous numbers of other standards and criteria that are applied on top of the minimal requirements. It turns out that when all those criteria are applied, the Asians who end up getting admitted have higher test scores than the average. Ah I see. Just a coincidence. 450 points. Everyone has high scores - it’s just that Asians have to have much higher to get admitted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=14)