# Asian American groups accuse Harvard of racial bias in admissions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183 "2015-05-16T17:34:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/501 "2015-06-19T22:31:52Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I disagree. Its so obvious that diversity is part of it and cannot be uncoupled from simply indirect reparations for the slavery of blacks. If it was not meant to create diversity, then we can simply hand out money to minorities that don’t get admitted to Harvard and other schools. The only reason Harvard can “create diversity” (which, again, to them means artificially letting in whites to keep the class from becoming too non-diversely Asian) in this way is because they are a private institution and have great leeway to do pretty much anything they want short of openly having a no-blacks policy, which no one is alleging they do. You can’t point to any public college or government-run agency that practices affirmative action by creating diversity through handicapping nonwhites and promoting undeserving whites, because such a concept is incoherent and ridiculous and only exists in your tortured justifications for the Keep Harvard White movement. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/502 "2015-06-19T22:53:00Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > You can’t point to any public college or government-run agency that practices affirmative action by creating diversity through handicapping nonwhites and promoting undeserving whites, because such a concept is incoherent and ridiculous and only exists in your tortured justifications for the Keep Harvard White movement. I don’t want to keep Harvard white. But thank you for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/503 "2015-06-19T23:15:09Z")
500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/504 "2015-06-19T23:20:23Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > 500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me. Consider the fact that you lack reading comprehension skills ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/505 "2015-06-20T23:29:28Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > 500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Consider the fact that you lack reading comprehension skills Drop the snide personal attacks. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/506 "2015-06-26T18:19:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 🙂 I am the OP, I think I was pretty clear what I think about it. > > As long as Harvard gets money from the government, they should not be able to discriminate on racial basis. If that results in fewer black doctors from Harvard, that’s how it is. I am sure those who have high MCATs etc. and don’t get into Harvard med school will still be able to get into good med schools. Affirmative action is the policy of the United States government. This policy has been upheld at all levels of review. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/507 "2015-06-26T18:25:51Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Sort of. You call him/her “Doctor,” but there are lots of layers of Doctors. > > You don’t typically call the C average Doctor “Specialist.” I am much more concerned with diversity at the primary care level than at the specialist level. Or do you think we have too many primary care physicians? I am not concerned with what the doctor looks like if the majority of your interaction with him is while you are under anesthesia or if you are seeing her because she is a specialist. I am a little concerned that the doctors in Far Rockaway are almost all Asian serving and almost all Black community. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/508 "2015-06-26T18:34:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I disagree. Its so obvious that diversity is part of it and cannot be uncoupled from simply indirect reparations for the slavery of blacks. If it was not meant to create diversity, then we can simply hand out money to minorities that don’t get admitted to Harvard and other schools. Its not reparations that should be passed out to every black person. It is leveling the playing field to compensate for past and current discrimination. Its not like every black child in America would be going to Harvard but for slavery and Jim Crow. > [@](#): > > Well that’s annoying. I was asked to explain myself and I did. We all know that unless you’re one of the 9, its pointless to really argue. I’m not sure why you had to say that other than as a way to take a shot as my opinion. :rolleyes: I don’t think I asked you to explain yourself. But if you took it as me taking a shot at you I apologize. > [@](#): > > Well unfortunately my opinion on this doesn’t matter so I’m not going to bother answering that. > > …is what I would say in response if I were a dick. But I’m not a dick, I just have one. 😛 So in answer to your question, there may be many other industries that can benefit from such a forced shift in demographics. None of my answers should be construed as being exclusive. The reason why I didn’t bring up the entertainment industry is because we’re not talking about that industry. Make a separate topic on entertainment if you want me to further debate it Well at least you’re consistent. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/509 "2015-08-08T00:15:09Z")
Small belated update and additional factor to be considered. In early July [the U.S. Education Department dismissed the complaint](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/05/27/407967899/a-top-medical-school-revamps-requirements-to-lure-english-majors). Despite the bemoaning by petition organizers that “They really let the Asian-American community down.” the significance is not so huge as there is still a similar case filed in Federal court. Meanwhile a recent radio report about college suicides among high achievers got me wondering what the rate of suicide is among Asian college students. Not much hard data, apparently just not kept. Definitely more suicidal ideation, even in High School. Otherwise we are left with anecdotal bits like this f[rom MIT](http://reappropriate.co/2015/05/asian-american-student-suicide-rate-at-mit-is-quadruple-the-national-average/). > [@](#): > > … This finding is important because that same study also found that a mere 14% of universities keep comprehensive records of student suicides; fewer still provide in-depth demographic analysis of reported deaths (Cornell University, by the way, is a notable exception to this rule). Armed with the understanding that at Cornell, Asian American students were disproportionately overrepresented among student deaths by suicide, this afternoon I combed through the archives of the MIT Tech, the school’s on-campus newspaper, to generate a more contemporary analysis of student deaths by suicide on the MIT campus. > > My findings were alarming: 19 of the last student deaths by suicide on the MIT campus occurred in the last 15 years. 8 of them — or 42% — involved Asian American students. … Compare this figure to the whole racial demographics of the MIT campus: 16% of MIT students are Asian American (24% of undergraduates, 11% of graduate students). This means that Asian Americans are over-represented by a factor of more than 2.5 among the school’s suicides. … [One article](http://newamericamedia.org/2014/05/a-hidden-tragedy----mental-illness-and-suicide-among-asian-americans.php) puts it like this: > [@](#): > > Asian Americans typically make up 10 to 30 percent of the best colleges. Less than 6 percent of the country’s population, Asian Americans have excelled in higher education in the last few decades. What’s barely explored, sadly, is the darker narrative, that subterraneous stream that runs parallel to this shining path to academic success: stress, disappointment, depression, and mental disorders. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/510 "2015-08-08T00:37:31Z")
It seems plausible to suggest that the high pressure put on Asian students to acheive results in a high suicide rate among those who fail. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/511 "2016-01-08T20:20:14Z")
This article is relevant: > **[New Book Reveals “Troubling Conversations” Inside Elite Graduate Admissions...](https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/01/elite-graduate-programs-behind-closed-doors-a-new-book-reveals-all.html)** > > This article originally appeared in Inside Higher Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/512 "2016-01-11T20:44:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This article is relevant: > > [Elite graduate programs behind closed doors: A new book reveals all.](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/inside_higher_ed/2016/01/elite_graduate_programs_behind_closed_doors_a_new_book_reveals_all.html) This article seems to be talking mostly about international students. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/513 "2016-01-12T22:02:21Z")
Another belated story > **[Princeton University Cleared of Claims of Anti-Asian Discrimination](https://www.wsj.com/articles/princeton-university-cleared-of-claims-of-anti-asian-discrimination-1443041489)** > > The Department of Education has declared that there is no evidence that Princeton University discriminates against Asian and Asian-American applicants. So whatever discrimination Princeton does or does not engage in is within the bounds of the law as far as the DoJ is concerned. This probably means that Harvard et al will get similar results. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/514 "2016-01-17T13:56:39Z")
Until Fisher is decided by SCOTUS, the DoJ’s opinion is not very significant. At issue for schools will be whether post-Fisher they can use race-alone criteria in their selection processes. Underneath all the hoopla is a simple fact: the best-qualified candidates from all (self-identified) race groups come from privileged backgrounds. Schools which want to be selective for candidates who are highly qualified academically face the stark reality that almost all highly-qualified blacks come from highly privileged backgrounds (as is true across the board for all races). But as a race bloc, their average scores are substantially below the average scores for other races with similar socioeconomic backgrounds. As a consequence of this, there is no way to get race-based diversity with excellent black students without having a race-based academic standard unique to each race group, and lower for blacks. Fisher is not about Fisher being less qualified than students who were admitted. It’s about U Texas’s right to preferentially race-qualify middle/upper class blacks over middle/upper class whites and asians, since U Texas could get race-alone diversity using the 10% guideline. Ivy Leagues and others have essentially argued that their holistic approaches satisfy race-specific concerns, but if Fisher goes against U Texas, future suits will be able to wrest data that is currently not being coerced into exposure by the DoJ (which is fairly race-friendly, so to speak). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/515 "2016-01-17T22:50:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Until Fisher is decided by SCOTUS, the DoJ’s opinion is not very significant. > > At issue for schools will be whether post-Fisher they can use race-alone criteria in their selection processes. Underneath all the hoopla is a simple fact: the best-qualified candidates from all (self-identified) race groups come from privileged backgrounds. > > Schools which want to be selective for candidates who are highly qualified academically face the stark reality that almost all highly-qualified blacks come from highly privileged backgrounds (as is true across the board for all races). But as a race bloc, their average scores are substantially below the average scores for other races with similar socioeconomic backgrounds. As a consequence of this, there is no way to get race-based diversity with excellent black students without having a race-based academic standard unique to each race group, and lower for blacks. > > Fisher is not about Fisher being less qualified than students who were admitted. It’s about U Texas’s right to preferentially race-qualify middle/upper class blacks over middle/upper class whites and asians, since U Texas could get race-alone diversity using the 10% guideline. > > Ivy Leagues and others have essentially argued that their holistic approaches satisfy race-specific concerns, but if Fisher goes against U Texas, future suits will be able to wrest data that is currently not being coerced into exposure by the DoJ (which is fairly race-friendly, so to speak). I’m curious how you feel about my position which some could construe as anti-white. I don’t mind affirmative action for the descendants of American slaves (at least for another decade or so and American Indians for a significantly longer period of time) but I want college admissions to be color and gender blind in all other respects (although I would be open to a socioeconomic bias by using something like the Texas 10% model). I am particularly offended by biases in favor of white children on the presumption that they are individuals while Asians are fungible SAT scores. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/516 "2016-01-17T23:22:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m curious how you feel about my position which some could construe as anti-white. I don’t mind affirmative action for the descendants of American slaves (at least for another decade or so and American Indians for a significantly longer period of time) but I want college admissions to be color and gender blind in all other respects (although I would be open to a socioeconomic bias by using something like the Texas 10% model). I am particularly offended by biases in favor of white children on the presumption that they are individuals while Asians are fungible SAT scores. I’m unclear what your position is… I am in favor of race-based AA because, without it, blacks will be significantly left behind. I think asians get the short end of the stick for merit-based systems. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/517 "2016-01-18T04:57:38Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I think asians get the short end of the stick for merit-based systems. Which Asians and why? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/518 "2016-01-18T10:53:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I have no problem with eliminating that kind of affirmative action either. > > Hey - how about this: you can keep your “holistic process”. But - people judging and deciding which applicants to accept and which to reject do not get to know their name, gender, race or ethnicity. Those are eliminated from the application, all that is stored separately, indexed by the application number. Once the application is accepted, then that is dug out and attached to the application. An entrance exam with only a number to identify the applicant to be held outside of the university system (school/college) sounds fare, we could do with the same system in the U.K. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/519 "2016-01-18T11:06:45Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > An entrance exam with only a number to identify the applicant to be held outside of the university system (school/college) sounds fare, we could do with the same system in the U.K. That’s what A-levels are, surely? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/520 "2016-01-18T11:22:31Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That’s what A-levels are, surely? It should be but only if you have gone to the right school. where I live you stand a better chance if you go to the private school than if you go to the local 6th form (which is excellent) at the end of the day we still have a class system where it is perceived that you must be the right type of person [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=27)