# Asian American groups accuse Harvard of racial bias in admissions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183 "2015-05-16T17:34:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/101 "2015-05-17T19:19:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Before there was AA, before everyone and their mother was trying to get into Harvard, black people were discriminated against. > > There has never been a time in this country when there has not been racial discrimination against black people. > > AA is not the cause of this “perception” you speak of. The perception preceded AA by almost 300 years. The perception may have been around for a while, but the causes for the perception may have changed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/102 "2015-05-17T19:22:56Z")
As for legacy admissions, I’m not sure if there is any effective way to ban this. It should certainly be discouraged, but how exactly would one draw up the rules for foiling it? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/103 "2015-05-17T19:29:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think the elephant in the room is this: Many people talk about the virtues of “diversity,” but they don’t mean just any kind of “diversity,” they mean a very specific kind of “diversity.” > They’re picturing a student body something like this: 50% white, 40% black or Hispanic, and 10% Asian and other races. > > What they don’t want is something like this: 50% white, 30% Asian, and 20% black, Hispanic and other races. That’s not the kind of “diversity” that they want. They would think that that ratio is out of whack. I’m LOL’ing. If a school had that many black students, it would not be known as diverse. It would be known as a predominately black school and all the “good” white people would be running away from it. You might be interested in this figure: [Asian enrollment in elite institutions is between 20-30%](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league/statistics-indicate-an-ivy-league-asian-quota) If Asian enrollment was, say, 30% across the board, there would still be plenty of Asians getting rejected. Especially since there are so [many](http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-students-go-to-crazy-lengths-in-us-university-applications-2015-2) applying every year. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/104 "2015-05-17T19:32:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The perception may have been around for a while, but the causes for the perception may have changed. So you’re ready to get rid of AA based on an assumption that even you aren’t confident about? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/105 "2015-05-17T19:34:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As for legacy admissions, I’m not sure if there is any effective way to ban this. It should certainly be discouraged, but how exactly would one draw up the rules for foiling it? Speaking of perceptions - I often hear from liberals that they do not consider Bush Jr’s Yale and Harvard degrees worth much because his admission to both schools was a legacy admission. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/106 "2015-05-17T19:36:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So you’re ready to get rid of AA based on an assumption that even you aren’t confident about? I am ready to get rid of racial discrimination in college admissions because it is racial discrimination. That assumption is a side issue. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/107 "2015-05-17T19:40:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am ready to get rid of racial discrimination in college admissions because it is racial discrimination. That assumption is a side issue. It is admirable that you want to get rid of racial discrimination. But do you have an alternative to AA that helps to offset the effects of historical and current discrimination? Or are those things just not important to your “fair world” ideal? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/108 "2015-05-17T19:52:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is admirable that you want to get rid of racial discrimination. But do you have an alternative to AA that helps to offset the effects of historical and current discrimination? Yes. Don’t racially discriminate. We tried it your way. For fifty years we racially discriminated in order to “offset the effects” of racial discrimination. And yet the “effects” are still there, strong as ever, as liberals keep reminding us. So let’s try it my way. No racial discrimination. Then let’s see fifty years hence if those “effects” are “offset” much better. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/109 "2015-05-17T19:53:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, but should have been able to mention her work with a tenant organizing group. Is the fact that it is a Chinatown group extremely important? > … You do know that you have to _name_ the place you worked for, and that likely a letter from a supervisor is part of your file. Doubt it will say “Generic Tenant Organizing Group” and by your standard it should then be disallowed. Silly. Let me try to break this down. In the most elite institutions there are a certain number of spots that go to those with lesser test scores and GPAs based on legacy status. Historically and currently most of those spots are wealthy and White but with generational shifts more legacies may be wealthy and minority as well. The argument, which I had repeated, is that this represents a play for endowment money. Not currently racist in intent even if it structurally perpetuates minimally classism and to some degree racially structured outcomes. Let’s hold off on further discussion of legacy for a minute to pursue the implications of a certain number of students, generally White, getting in not because they are White but in pursuit of endowments by way of legacy admissions. Maybe a quarter of the spots. You now have a smaller pool, we are guessing 3/4ths, of everyone else. White non-legacy candidates, Middle class Asian students, Blacks of all social strata, so on. Eliminate those whose test scores and GPAs don’t place them in the very top strata. Give spots to those with some way out of the normal personal accomplishment be it having already been nationally recognized for research on how computers multi-task, being a nationally ranked skier, other athletic achievements, national recognition for original cancer research while in High School, or overcoming major adversity on the path to academic excellence. That will be a mix of ethnicities, certainly some Asian and some Black, some Hispanic and some White. They won’t all be Asian and there is no a priori reason to believe that there will be an over-representation of Asians in the group. Some of those might not have the very top SAT in the class and might have even had one B along the way but it is reasonably clear that they are more likely to enhance the institution both in the short and the long term than the average high SATer. Slightly smaller pool yet now remains; let’s rough it as two thirds. Of that group the Admissions Committee wants a diverse range of interests. You are a liberal arts school … you want at least half the class to be expressing interest (and having demonstrated their “passion” for it in past coursework and extracurriculars) in non-STEM/econ fields, things like the classics, philosophy, literature, anthropology, history, art, english, linguistics, psychology, so on. Some of those will be high achieving Asian-Americans but culturally not as many. Non-zero but smallish. The cultural push is more to hard science and math, not comparative literature. Let’s be generous and call it 5% of the very top of that group is of Asian heritage. Now of the half of the remaining two thirds, that is one third of the total class, that is primarily STEM and econ focused … to get over 20% of the total you need to argue that the _vast majority_ of the best of the best of High School students interested in STEM and econ are of this less than 6% of the U.S. population. Not so sure that is true. It seems not to be a quota so much as a structural result combined of legacy as an affirmative action class and the cultural biases within Asian American culture to be concentrated in similar paths and thus competing with each other and a group of similarly amazingly qualified Whites, Blacks and Hispanics for a smaller portion of the seats. Now the legacy system is fair game to criticize. It does seem that its [original intent](http://www.businessinsider.com/legacy-admissions-originally-created-keep-jewish-students-out-elite-colleges-2013-10) was to discriminate against immigrants, at the time mostly Jewish ones. I don’t blame the institutions for responding to what they perceive as doing that which funds them … although apparently it actually [does not work](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/opinion/30kahlenberg.html) so well. But I wouldn’t mind if it was prohibited as illegal … and it may yet be. > [@](#): > > … A study by Winnemac Consulting for the Century Foundation found that from 1998 to 2007, at the nation’s top 100 national universities, if one controls for the wealth of alumni, “there is no statistically significant evidence of a causal relationship between legacy preference policies and total alumni giving.” Moreover, the study found that at the seven universities that dropped legacy preferences during the time of the study, alumni giving didn’t decline. … > > … Legacy preferences may also be illegal. Although in 1976 a federal court ruled in a passing mention that legacy preferences are constitutional, the issue has never been properly litigated. Today, new legal arguments have been advanced questioning legacy preferences at both public and private universities. … ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/110 "2015-05-17T19:59:39Z")
Harvard has had a relatively low percentage of humanities majors (they call it “concentrations,” it’s just an affectation) for some time. It is not a “liberal arts school.” [http://harvardmagazine.com/375th/concentrations-chart](http://harvardmagazine.com/375th/concentrations-chart) One of the issues that Ivy League schools are currently confronting is the end of confidence in the humanities. The age of the prestigious English degree guaranteeing a job outside of academia is coming to a close. Best-of-the-best students who can write their own ticket are declining Harvard and Yale for Stanford and MIT because the hard science programs are not as strong. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/111 "2015-05-17T20:06:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m LOL’ing. > > If a school had that many black students, it would not be known as diverse. It would be known as a predominately black school and all the “good” white people would be running away from it. Just for clarification, by “40% black or Hispanic,” I mean 40% comprising the total of black and Hispanic students combined. I don’t mean all 40% black or all 40% Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/112 "2015-05-17T20:09:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. Don’t racially discriminate. > > We tried it your way. For fifty years we racially discriminated in order to “offset the effects” of racial discrimination. And yet the “effects” are still there, strong as ever, as liberals keep reminding us. > > So let’s try it my way. No racial discrimination. Then let’s see fifty years hence if those “effects” are “offset” much better. They aren’t “as strong as ever.” You conservative types are always reminding us how much improvement we’ve seen over the past 50s. Why, we’ve got a colored man in the White House! We can say that racial discrimination is still problematic while recognizing that the situation has clearly improved for black Americans. I don’t know how much of this improvement is due to AA. But your assessment that this policy has been a failure is not born out by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/113 "2015-05-17T20:15:38Z")
We can actually isolate how much of it is due to affirmative action at prestigious universities fairly easily. Because affirmative action affects things like university _admissions_ and blue-collar hiring. It doesn’t make the actual program of study any easier, and it doesn’t get you a job in a professional field. The growth in the number of black doctors, lawyers, economics professors, and CEOs can’t be attributable to affirmative action since affirmative action has never been used in moving people through medical school or in handing out law partnerships. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/114 "2015-05-17T20:26:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It really can’t. How do you write about your decision not to wear a headscarf without talking about your race and gender? How do you explain how you balanced your parents’ expectations against your own dreams if you can’t contextualize those expectations? How do you talk about the discrimination you’ve faced, or the bigotry you’ve learned to recognize in yourself, or whatever without talking about race and gender? > > I do this professionally. I literally review and advise kids on dozens of these things each year. For probably 50% of kids, the events that have shaped their lives, that have changed their perspective and way of thinking, are rooted in race and gender. One of the best essays I saw this year was “How being a fat gay Mexican kid in a white middle school taught me to get over myself”. It was funny and heartfelt and showed a kid who was deeply insightful and had powerful gifts for analysis and language. There is no way any of that would have come out if he’d had to avoid all mention of race and gender. What does any of that show to an undergrad or grad school admissions officer about how likely you are to succeed in the program? I’m sure that a fat, gay Mexican kid in an all white school has some interesting stories to tell. I’m also sure that we can feel sorrow and admiration for what he had to go through. But how does any of that show that he will be a good doctor or lawyer? And even if it somehow did, why should he get admitted over another student with higher GPAs and test scores because of it? My kid doesn’t get admitted because he wasn’t fat, gay, or Mexican even though the objective indicators show that he will perform better in school? A larger point is that my kid never owned slaves or participated in Jim Crow laws. He will probably be more tolerant of different lifestyles than me, e.g. will probably support same sex marriage at a greater rate than my generation. He is blameless for the past. To deny him admissions in favor of a less qualified minority applicant will, in a perverse sense, reignite racial hatreds and passions. The kid is left with the very true belief that he was only denied because he wasn’t a minority who had a good story to tell. That sort of stuff will stoke the racial fires that we all agree should die in the dustbin of history. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/115 "2015-05-17T20:38:53Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > We can actually isolate how much of it is due to affirmative action at prestigious universities fairly easily. Because affirmative action affects things like university _admissions_ and blue-collar hiring. It doesn’t make the actual program of study any easier, and it doesn’t get you a job in a professional field. > > The growth in the number of black doctors, lawyers, economics professors, and CEOs can’t be attributable to affirmative action since affirmative action has never been used in moving people through medical school or in handing out law partnerships. [Medical schools don’t use AA?](http://www.aei.org/publication/acceptance-rates-at-us-medical-schools-in-2013-reveal-racial-profiling-and-affirmative-discrimination-for-blacks-hispanics/) I’d be curious to see how black professionals compare against their white counterparts in terms of their high school credentials. If black professionals, on average, had less-than-stellar high school credentials (fewer advanced classes, less impressive SAT scores), one could argue that AA faciliated their advancement, allowing them to offet the disadvantages of their birth and cultural background. If black professionals, on average, had marks that were similar to their white peers, then one could argue that AA is just a waste of time. If you’ve got all the merit criteria checked off, you’ll make it. If you don’t, you’ll flunk out. No special boost is necessary. [Hmmm](http://www.diversityweb.org/digest/f98/farreaching.html)…what do you know? There’s been research done on this exact subject. I guess social science is actually good for something! > [@](#): > > Finally, Bok and Bowen’s study also puts into context and perspective the gaps in SAT scores and GPAs and describes their relative importance in admissions decisions. One important, perhaps surprising statistic they cite has to do with average SAT scores. While the average SAT score of African Americans admitted under race-sensitive admissions was 1098, the authors predict that, without these policies, those African Americans admitted would have an average SAT score of about 1181. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/116 "2015-05-17T20:44:22Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Harvard has had a relatively low percentage of humanities majors (they call it “concentrations,” it’s just an affectation) for some time. It is not a “liberal arts school.” > > [http://harvardmagazine.com/375th/concentrations-chart](http://harvardmagazine.com/375th/concentrations-chart) … Your link shows that sciences and humanities are as they always have been, mostly neck and neck, and that the biggest group by far, nearly half the class, is social sciences - which includes Anthropology, Sociology, African American Studies, Psychology, Economics, Poli Sci, Government, History … sounds like a liberal arts school to me. Pretty similar to Yale and likely most other liberal arts colleges, and not majority hard science and math. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/117 "2015-05-17T20:48:47Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What does any of that show to an undergrad or grad school admissions officer about how likely you are to succeed in the program? I’m sure that a fat, gay Mexican kid in an all white school has some interesting stories to tell. I’m also sure that we can feel sorrow and admiration for what he had to go through. But how does any of that show that he will be a good doctor or lawyer? [Disparities in health among ethnic minorities](http://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/nhqrdr/nhqrdr10/minority.html) [Racial disparities in criminal justice](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/) Being a good doctor or lawyer is not predicated on someone being fat and Mexican. But perhaps one way to reduce racial/ethnic disparities in medicine and criminal justice is to increase the representation of practitioners from stigmatized racial and ethnic groups. Perhaps some of the disparities are the direct result of low representation. I’m imagining a group of first-year medical students learning about how culture can play a role in medicine. It does not benefit those students if everyone in that room comes from the same culture–including the instructor. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/118 "2015-05-17T20:52:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Correct, it’s not up for debate, because there weren’t any. [As I alluded to earlier](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18371465&postcount=57), " … while those particular concerns had racial overtones, even then the idea of racial quotas was rejected in favor of what has since come to be called the “holistic” approach, which really goes back to the early 20s …" > > From your own link! … (emphasis mine) … > Lowell received a great deal of public criticism, particularly in the Boston press [for having **proposed** quotas]. Harvard’s overseers appointed a 13-member committee, which included three Jews, to study the university’s “Jewish problem.” **The committee rejected a Jewish quota** but agreed that “geographic diversity” in the student body was desirable. > > The rejection of quotas was really the whole basis for the “holistic” approach being discussed here, whether or not one agrees with it. From the cite I provided earlier: > Lowell’s first idea – a quota limiting Jews to fifteen per cent of the student body – was roundly criticized. Lowell tried restricting the number of scholarships given to Jewish students, and made an effort to bring in students from public schools in the West, where there were fewer Jews. Neither strategy worked. Finally, Lowell – and his counterparts at Yale and Princeton – realized that if a definition of merit based on academic prowess was leading to the wrong kind of student, the solution was to change the definition of merit. Karabel argues that it was at this moment that the history and nature of the Ivy League took a significant turn. So, the imposition of “geographic diversity” quotas for the purpose of limiting the number of Jews entering Harvard did not constitute imposing “Jewish quotas”. Ok, leaving aside the fact that such a claim is jaw-droppingly stupid, for your sake, I hope you have never once claimed that the use of poll taxes or literacy tests in Jim Crow states was racist since they were not in fact explicitly racist but, in theory at least, applied to both whites and blacks regardless of the intent behind them. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/119 "2015-05-17T21:00:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > They aren’t “as strong as ever.” You conservative types are always reminding us how much improvement we’ve seen over the past 50s. Why, we’ve got a colored man in the White House! Yeah, no kidding. A colored man who is an Ivy League graduate, married to a colored woman who is also an Ivy League graduate. Almost exactly 45 years before Obama was elected president of the United States, George Wallace was standing in the doorway of the University of Alabama to prevent two black students from entering its hallowed halls. The Civil Rights Act was still in the future, and the [Negro Motorist Green Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) was still being published, advising such motorists where they could safely stay on cross-country road trips without being killed. Yes, I do believe there have been some changes in the past 50 years, even if conservatives don’t quite see them. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183/120 "2015-05-17T21:16:27Z")
**monstro** while you and I have not seen perfectly eye to eye on this subject in the past, [today’s NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/opinion/sunday/the-case-for-black-doctors.html?ref=opinion)has an article that makes some of the same points you have made before and make today. I’ll just quote the concluding paragraph - > [@](#): > > In an ideal world, the race of the patient or physician wouldn’t matter; we would all treat each other strictly as individuals. But we’re quite a ways from reaching that exalted goal. For now, we have to attack the problem of racial health disparities from as many angles as possible. Black doctors are an important part of this mission. Being fat gay and Mexican does not make the kid a better student; it was how he wrote about it and the insights he demonstrated discussing being “other” with humor that **Manda Jo** was impressed by, and that she thought would not have been demonstrated so well if his discussing how he is/was “other” was a verboten topic. It may be that as a result he will be better skilled at appreciating others otherness. In any case his past experience of otherness is a key part of who he is, what motivates him, and his demonstrated ability to integrate that into his persona with humor and insight is a plus. Here’s the simple reality that often gets missed: communication skills (be it involving different cultures or not) are skills and skills are not well taught in a lecture format. They require either being naturally talented or practice and coaching or more often both … just like throwing a football or playing a musical instrument. Being in an environment that is all “us” and getting lectures about how to talk to “them” … even if given by a “them” … is no substitute for actual experiences on the level of equals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asian-american-groups-accuse-harvard-of-racial-bias-in-admissions/720183.md?page=7)