# Asiana crash at SF Airport: looks like pilot screwed the pooch, yes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900 "2013-07-08T00:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/1 "2013-07-08T00:37:19Z")
See, eg., this [article](http://stream.wsj.com/story/san-francisco-plane-crash/SS-2-270660/SS-2-271248/) from SF. Any thoughts so far from people here who know how to fly? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/2 "2013-07-08T00:47:44Z")
It looks like a pretty serious cock-up. There’s a good analysis [here](http://momav.me/armchair-air-crash-investigator/). In short, they initially came in too high/too fast, and then overcorrected, making them too low/too slow. They attempted a go-around (which they should have done in the first place), but by then it was far too late and the plane was stalled or nearly so. The ILS (instrument landing system) was down for repair. But the PAPI (precision approach path indicator) was working, which should have been enough for a visual approach. Actually, they should have been able to land without the PAPI, but getting things wrong even with that is sorta inexcusable. Incidentally, the initial reports said the plane “cartwheeled”, which I thought was unlikely, and that they really meant a ground loop (horizontal spin). But from [this](http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/07/vo-sf-plane-crash-moment-of-impact-spotlight.cnn.html) video, a “cartwheel” isn’t too far off–the tail of the craft picks up some serious air as it’s turning around. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/3 "2013-07-08T00:48:12Z")
Saw the video of the landing off CNN. Looks like the pilot had the nose so far in the air that the tail hit the ground on the landing. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/4 "2013-07-08T01:09:45Z")
superficially, yes, but my knowledge is minimal so I will wait for the investigation to produce something before I even begin to have an opinion on it. TL;DR I don’t know much about this so I’ll let the experts tell me what happened. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/5 "2013-07-08T01:31:33Z")
Did the pilots survive? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/6 "2013-07-08T01:37:41Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Did the pilots survive? Yes; the two fatalities were teenaged girls from China. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/7 "2013-07-08T01:52:08Z")
So the pilots apparently were not only well short of the runway but also managed to put the plane into a stall (or at least a near-stall with the stick-shakers activated)? If so, that pooch got screwed but good. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/8 "2013-07-08T02:31:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Incidentally, the initial reports said the plane “cartwheeled”, which I thought was unlikely, and that they really meant a ground loop (horizontal spin). But from [this](http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/07/vo-sf-plane-crash-moment-of-impact-spotlight.cnn.html) video, a “cartwheel” isn’t too far off–the tail of the craft picks up some serious air as it’s turning around. Looks like one of the wings dipped and dug the tip into the ground first, causing the rest of the airplane to do a bit of a pirouette around it before the belly finally hit the ground. Yow. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/9 "2013-07-08T02:37:55Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Yes; the two fatalities were teenaged girls from China. One of whom may have been run over by an emergency vehicle :(. ---
**Author:** ![kurdtvana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@kurdtvana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurdtvana)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/10 "2013-07-08T03:13:18Z")
This pilot had approx. 43 hours of stick time on the 777. Might as well have taken a correspondence course on flying horizontal. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/11 "2013-07-08T03:15:10Z")
> [@kurdtvana](#): > > This pilot had approx. 43 hours of stick time on the 777. Might as well have taken a correspondence course on flying horizontal. Every experienced B777 pilot had 43 hours in the 777 at some point in their career. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/12 "2013-07-08T03:15:25Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > So the pilots apparently were not only well short of the runway but also managed to put the plane into a stall (or at least a near-stall with the stick-shakers activated)? > > If so, that pooch got screwed but good. Well it’s all part of the same fuck-up. They realized (far too late) that they weren’t going to make it to the edge of the runway and tried to do a ‘go-around’ which means they fire-walled (maxed) the throttles and pulled the nose up. Pulling the nose up wasn’t really a mistake in that desperate a situation, but the lack of airspeed made a stall inevitable at that point. But still, first impressions show serious pilot misjudgement & error. Ya know, I wonder if Asian culture causes their aircrews to still suffer from bad cockpit management in terms of the First Officer \*\*\*never \*\*\*feeling it proper to question the Capt? It’s happened before. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/13 "2013-07-08T03:23:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Every experienced B777 pilot had 43 hours in the 777 at some point in their career. Wouldn’t they normally log many more hours than that as a \*\*co-\*\*pilot before serving as the pilot? [This article](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pilot-of-crashed-plane-had-43-hours-experience-flying-boeing-777-asiana-says-20130707,0,7467256.story) says the _pilot_ only had 43 hours in the 777 while the _co-pilot_ has “more experience” and “lots of experience with the B777”. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/14 "2013-07-08T03:36:30Z")
I’m just wondering if the article is using a bit of confusing terminology–in other words, the guy in training, if he’s got the yoke, is the “Pilot Flying,” while the “Pilot Not Flying” may actually be the ranking officer. In other words, it’s the reporter using the term “co-pilot” to refer to the Pilot Not Flying," when the PNF may have, in fact been the captain, and the Pilot Flying the first officer. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/15 "2013-07-08T03:40:30Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Wouldn’t they normally log many more hours than that as a \*\*co-\*\*pilot before serving as the pilot? [This article](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pilot-of-crashed-plane-had-43-hours-experience-flying-boeing-777-asiana-says-20130707,0,7467256.story) says the _pilot_ only had 43 hours in the 777 while the _co-pilot_ has “more experience” and “lots of experience with the B777”. There could be all sorts of terminology problems here (pilot/copilot/captain/first officer etc). That said, it is normal for experienced pilots in airlines with multiple aircraft types to transition directly to an aircraft as a captain. In that scenario the “co-pilot” is actually a very experienced training captain and it is really no different from when a new first officer is under training. Every pilot was new to an aeroplane at some point, it makes little difference what seat they are sitting in. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/16 "2013-07-08T03:59:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Looks like one of the wings dipped and dug the tip into the ground first, causing the rest of the airplane to do a bit of a pirouette around it before the belly finally hit the ground. Yow. Yeah. I’m not going to pick nits between “cartwheel” and “pirouette”. Check out the path of the nosewheel in [this](http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1392037.1373163199!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/173082788.jpg) image. You can see the the plane first starts veering to the right (of the image), but the nose then fairly sharply turns left. I believe this is about where the rear lifts up–the plane then rotates another 90 degrees or so before the tail slams down, and then the plane rotates another 90 degrees on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/17 "2013-07-08T05:47:28Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Wouldn’t they normally log many more hours than that as a \*\*co-\*\*pilot before serving as the pilot? [This article](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pilot-of-crashed-plane-had-43-hours-experience-flying-boeing-777-asiana-says-20130707,0,7467256.story) says the _pilot_ only had 43 hours in the 777 while the _co-pilot_ has “more experience” and “lots of experience with the B777”. More relevantly, perhaps, the news today said that this flight was the pilot’s first into SFO. However an expert interviewed on the local news said that it might be in the 777, but unlikely to be his first into SFO period. In case anyone was wondering, the weather was pretty much perfect yesterday. The same expert, when pressed about whether it was a pilot screw up, was unwilling to say so, but said the airspeed indicator might have been faulty or the pilot might have been incapacitated. But I don’t think he bought either theory. We’ll know soon enough. (By incapacitated he meant health issue, not booze.) Since they have tapes of him talking to the tower now, this seems unlikely. The same guy said that you can go above the recommended airspeed by up to five knots, but not below it.; They were way below it. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/18 "2013-07-08T15:17:25Z")
The FAA said preliminary cockpit data indicates they were “significantly” under the required approach speed - “we’re not talking a few miles an hour”. How does 47 hours work out in terms of number of landings, if Korea to North America is a 10-hour-plus flight? (Although they did leave from Shanghai, and landed successfully in Seoul first…) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/19 "2013-07-08T15:25:03Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > How does 47 hours work out in terms of number of landings, if Korea to North America is a 10-hour-plus flight? (Although they did leave from Shanghai, and landed successfully in Seoul first…) I believe I heard that this was only the pilot/co-pilot’s ninth flight in a B777. I’m confused now though, since I’m actually working and have not been able to pay much attention to the news. _Which_ pilot only had 43 hours in-type; the captain, or the first officer? (Note: While the pilot only had 43 hours in type, he had over 10,000 total flying hours.) ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/20 "2013-07-08T15:27:07Z")
Reports I have seen said the pilot had 47 hours in a 777, but had close to 10,000 hours experience, and had flown into SFO 20 odd times, usually flying a 747. This isn’t exactly a green pilot. Inexperience is a hard call, unfamiliarity maybe, but there is clearly a very interesting question as to how it got this way. We probably are in for a much more interesting story. I will bet some cultural issues will have played a part. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900.md?page=2)