# Asiana crash at SF Airport: looks like pilot screwed the pooch, yes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900 "2013-07-08T00:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/61 "2013-07-10T16:42:07Z")
> [@Pixel\_Dent](#): > > Was pulling back the right thing to do in a 777 or would a different action be expected? If (as apparently has been reported) airspeed was lower than called for, “pulling back” (i.e. increasing pitch attitude) would be unlikely to help much. It would increase lift, but also significantly increase drag, resulting in further loss of airspeed and thus tending to lead to a stall. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/62 "2013-07-10T18:15:07Z")
Still, 777 or 747 or anything with a 7, there’s no way it could possibly be acceptable to be flying at 104 knots, from the very little I know of big jets. Heck, IIRC even in the tiny Cessnas 70 or 80 knots is the recommended approach. Considering how critical it is to be right on landing, I would think we are looking at multiple instances of the Asoh defence? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/63 "2013-07-10T20:03:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is there any indication that there was a sudden shift in the wind which might have drastically reduced the plane’s airspeed? I haven’t seen any indication of a sudden decrease in speed, just a steady decrease from not having the autothrust engaged. And I’ve seen no reports of significant wind events - winds were quite calm that day. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/64 "2013-07-10T22:34:59Z")
tv news said that pilots didn’t order evacuation immediately because they didn’t think it was bad enough. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/65 "2013-07-10T23:21:23Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think, but am not sure, that another installation in this now-abandoned system is the one adjacent to Chernobyl that has some prominent web photos and apparently appeared as a setting in a video game. I would like to propose a Rule 51: There is no event or setting, however awful, that someone will not use in a video game. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/66 "2013-07-11T00:24:22Z")
"Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground. Deborah Hersman, chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said it wasn’t clear what could have caused the problem. Asked specifically whether it could have been a laser pointed from the ground, Hersman said she couldn’t say what caused it." > **[Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light prior to crash](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/10/asiana-flight-214-ntsb-pilot-blinded/2507059/)** > > Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light at 500 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/67 "2013-07-11T11:51:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I haven’t seen any indication of a sudden decrease in speed, just a steady decrease from not having the autothrust engaged. And I’ve seen no reports of significant wind events - winds were quite calm that day. [Some interesting plots here of their descent profile](http://flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/) which include a comparison with another 777 that landed safely just 10 minutes before the crash. The other plane was on a perfect 3-degree descent path; in comparison, Asiana 214 was high and fast for most of its descent until the final 1.5 miles, when it fell below that 3-degree descent path _and_ decelerated substantially. Rapid descent PLUS deceleration suggests the pilot pulled the engines way back, trying to get onto that 3-degree path - and then waited too long to add thrust again. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/68 "2013-07-11T12:12:58Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > [Some interesting plots here of their descent profile](http://flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/) which include a comparison with another 777 that landed safely just 10 minutes before the crash. The other plane was on a perfect 3-degree descent path; in comparison, Asiana 214 was high and fast for most of its descent until the final 1.5 miles, when it fell below that 3-degree descent path _and_ decelerated substantially. Rapid descent PLUS deceleration suggests the pilot pulled the engines way back, trying to get onto that 3-degree path - and then waited too long to add thrust again. If you shift the red curves to the left about 1 nmile, they look much more similar to the black curves (until about 3 nmiles out). Is thinking you have another mile to go a plausible mistake to make somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/69 "2013-07-11T12:23:31Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > tv news said that pilots didn’t order evacuation immediately because they didn’t think it was bad enough. That seems strange to me. They just crash-landed; the tail has been ripped off; two or more passengers were thrown out, probably to their death; and it isn’t bad enough to evacuate? What purpose does it serve to stay in the aircraft? To have another round of cocktails? Enjoy being dowsed with foam? ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/70 "2013-07-11T12:58:31Z")
Because for all they know it is worse outside the plane at that moment. One side of the plane may be safe and other other not safe. Etc. Local news talked to Sullenburger and he said it would be normal operating procedure to have everybody stay in place, if people aren’t in immediate danger inside of the plane, while evaluations are made. And as soon as the fire danger was seen they reverse and got everybody off the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/71 "2013-07-11T15:41:26Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > That seems strange to me. They just crash-landed; the tail has been ripped off; two or more passengers were thrown out, probably to their death; and it isn’t bad enough to evacuate? What purpose does it serve to stay in the aircraft? To have another round of cocktails? Enjoy being dowsed with foam? Time to http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2013/07/07/san-francisco-777-crash-why-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/"]gather up their luggage. In a longer post-crash analysis from ABC News, “[Experts: don’t grab bags when leaving plane crash,](http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/peninsula&id=9168669)” it was shown that when they did so they weren’t acting judiciously. What would we do without experts? ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/72 "2013-07-11T16:19:23Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Because for all they know it is worse outside the plane at that moment. One side of the plane may be safe and other other not safe. Etc. Local news talked to Sullenburger and he said it would be normal operating procedure to have everybody stay in place, if people aren’t in immediate danger inside of the plane, while evaluations are made. > > And as soon as the fire danger was seen they reverse and got everybody off the plane. Yeah, in his case (the ‘Miracle on the Hudson’ crash) it was a passenger who, without being told to by a flight attendant, opened one of the rear emergency doors and caused the plane to flood much more quickly than it would have. As hard as it is to conceive the passengers didn’t really realize they had landed on the water! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/73 "2013-07-11T16:20:17Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > In a longer post-crash analysis from ABC News, “[Experts: don’t grab bags when leaving plane crash,](http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/peninsula&id=9168669)” it was shown that when they did so they weren’t acting judiciously. They also said: > [@](#): > > And the experts say the faster you exit a plane, the better your odds of surviving. Looks like we have dueling experts: > [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Local news talked to Sullenburger and he said it would be normal operating procedure to have everybody stay in place… Expert, shmexpert. I’m getting off this deathtrap! > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Yeah, in his case (the ‘Miracle on the Hudson’ crash) it was a passenger who, without being told to by a flight attendant, opened one of the rear emergency doors and caused the plane to flood much more quickly than it would have. As hard as it is to conceive the passengers didn’t really realize they had landed on the water! In defense of the passenger, I wonder just how many attendants (and pilots) know which doors are safe to open and which aren’t in a water landing. Hard to get off the plane if you don’t open a door. Beam me up, Scully! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/74 "2013-07-11T16:26:24Z")
Slightly aside (I don’t want to use the word “hijack” in an airline thread), but - Someone once asked a race driver, possibly Jackie Stewart, what it was like to be in a crash. He said, “There’s a tremendous thumping and banging, and the roar of other cars passing you, and you’re tossed about like a rag doll. You wait for it all to get quiet, then wait a little longer, then get the hell out of the car.” The interviewer asked, “Why wait longer? Isn’t the fear of fire enough to make you get out quickly?” Stewart: “The quiet part at the end is tricky. It could mean you’re flying through the air.” Relevant in that some immediate dangers of a major crash, as others have outlined, could continue past that first “quiet moment.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/75 "2013-07-11T16:42:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > They also said:Looks like we have dueling experts:Expert, shmexpert. I’m getting off this deathtrap! > In defense of the passenger, I wonder just how many attendants (and pilots) know which doors are safe to open and which aren’t in a water landing. Hard to get off the plane if you don’t open a door. Beam me up, Scully! Not taking your carry on and getting off fast are not conflicting pieces of advice. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard pre-flight briefings particularly mention to not take your stuff. The pilots remind me of the pilots in Lenny Bruce’s Non Skeddo Airlines Flies Again. (Can’t find the words anywhere.) After a bomb blows off the tail of their plane (in the air) they say “I won’t tell anyone if you don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/76 "2013-07-11T16:49:36Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > That seems strange to me. They just crash-landed; the tail has been ripped off; two or more passengers were thrown out, probably to their death; and it isn’t bad enough to evacuate? What purpose does it serve to stay in the aircraft? To have another round of cocktails? Enjoy being dowsed with foam? People are very likely to get hurt in a high speed evacuation: falling down, tripping over each other… ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/77 "2013-07-11T17:21:00Z")
In fairness to the people who did take their stuff, if I was on the plane and we sat around for a minute or so before opening the doors, I might not think there was that much of an emergency that I had to leave my stuff. Hard to say without being there. Is there any evidence that anyone was harmed by the people who brought their stuff? Like did the last few off suffer from smoke inhalation, or anything? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/78 "2013-07-12T00:51:13Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > In fairness to the people who did take their stuff, if I was on the plane and we sat around for a minute or so before opening the doors, I might not think there was that much of an emergency that I had to leave my stuff. Hard to say without being there. > > Is there any evidence that anyone was harmed by the people who brought their stuff? Like did the last few off suffer from smoke inhalation, or anything? Well they could have but you wouldn’t know until after the fact, which is kind of the point. Also taking your luggage could cause an escape slide to get pierced. If there are things you possess that are so important to you, put them in a pocket. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/79 "2013-07-19T17:40:13Z")
Latest news: firetruck killed one of the girls: > **[SFO crash: Coroner says Asiana crash victim died after firetruck ran over her](https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/07/19/sfo-crash-coroner-says-asiana-crash-victim-died-after-firetruck-ran-over-her/)** > > SFO crash: Coroner says Asiana crash victim died after firetruck ran over her ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900/80 "2013-07-19T20:18:23Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > People are very likely to get hurt in a high speed evacuation: falling down, tripping over each other… People are even more likely to be hurt in NO evacuation. Just delaying it isn’t going to make them exit more orderly. It might make them more anxious and nervous, and certainly didn’t convey the extreme gravity of the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asiana-crash-at-sf-airport-looks-like-pilot-screwed-the-pooch-yes/662900.md?page=5)