# Asians and math **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168 "2004-02-14T05:43:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MAFA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@MAFA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAFA)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/21 "2004-02-14T15:31:41Z")
> [@lucwarm](#): > > I would want to see it too. Anecdotally, it’s common on university campuses to meet oriental/asian students who are good at math but not as good verbally. But try visiting a top law school these days – you’ll find plenty of asian students who are doing just fine (although a lot of them seem interested in patent law . . . hmmm) [http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm](http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm) [http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html](http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html) [http://www.ceousa.org/va.html](http://www.ceousa.org/va.html) Would you like another? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/22 "2004-02-14T15:34:15Z")
To add to **Gobear** ’s comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas. Additionally, there is a difference between “intelligence” and “doing well in school,” and Asians do well in school for cultural reasons such as **Gobear** listed, even if they are no smarter than the anglo kid next to them. And why is this in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![MAFA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@MAFA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAFA)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/23 "2004-02-14T15:37:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > To add to **Gobear** ’s comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas. > > Additionally, there is a difference between “intelligence” and “doing well in school,” and Asians do well in school for cultural reasons such as **Gobear** listed, even if they are no smarter than the anglo kid next to them. > > And why is this in the Pit? What do you think is an apt measurement of intelligence if not GPA? SAT scores? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/24 "2004-02-14T15:46:28Z")
I have a MS in Engineering. Part of the way that I put myself through grad school was by being a TA. I had a dumbass housemate who made the same claim as the OP. I honestly never noticed one way or the other. After I finished grading a pile of tests, I sorted them by ethnicity. Guess what? No one group did better than any other. Haj ---
**Author:** ![MAFA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@MAFA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAFA)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/25 "2004-02-14T15:51:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I have a MS in Engineering. Part of the way that I put myself through grad school was by being a TA. I had a dumbass housemate who made the same claim as the OP. I honestly never noticed one way or the other. After I finished grading a pile of tests, I sorted them by ethnicity. Guess what? No one group did better than any other. > > Haj Statistically speaking, your representative sample is too small. I’m talking state-wide, nationally, those sorts of numbers. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/26 "2004-02-14T17:59:33Z")
[http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind93/chap1/doc/1c8b93.htm](http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind93/chap1/doc/1c8b93.htm) > [@](#): > > Asians not only outscored all other groups on the mathematics SAT from 1987 through 1992, they are also widening the gap between themselves and all other groups. More Asians are taking the test and are scoring at the highest levels. Indeed, the proportion of Asians scoring 750 or more almost doubled during the period, rising from 3 to 5 percent. At the same time, the percentage of Asians scoring below 450 dropped from 30 percent in 1987 to 27 percent in 1992. [http://www.weac.org/News/2003-04/aug03/SAT2003.pdf](http://www.weac.org/News/2003-04/aug03/SAT2003.pdf) Asians lead national math SAT scores and percentage of ethnic group that take precalc and calc in HS through 2003. So the stereotype of Asian-Americans has a basis in fact, anecdotes of stupidheads and math disabled Asians notwithstanding. No one seems to claim that this is based on “racial” factors, just interested in whether or not it is a selection bias or a result of family values and pressures or cultural expectations or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what. ---
**Author:** ![7\_up\_yours](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/7/919ad9/32.png) [@7\_up\_yours](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/7_up_yours)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/27 "2004-02-14T18:14:48Z")
I’m pureblood Asian :rolleyes: and I got my calculus midterm back yesterday. 21/40. Passed by a hairline. I did better in high school, but not that much better. Maybe it’s because I grew up in Canada and all my life have rejected my parents’ pressure to act “more Asian” (like my brother, oh the horror), or because it’s a stupid stereotype that doesn’t apply to anyone I know. ---
**Author:** ![tinactin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@tinactin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tinactin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/28 "2004-02-14T18:27:35Z")
I have been teaching mathematics at various universities in North America over the past 8 years and have never noticed this difference amongst undergraduates. Some plausible reasons have already been given. Another factor to consider is that when it comes to graduate school the better US born students will go to places like Harvard, Princeton, etc. Life is more competitive for foreign students, and many very good students end up in your local state university. This causes a disparity in the abilities of foreign and US born students at some colleges. > [@furt](#): > > To add to **Gobear** ’s comments: traditional Asian education relies heavily on rote memorization; useful for things like mathematical formulas. The person who gave you this impression about mathematics has done you a great disservice. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/29 "2004-02-14T18:32:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So the stereotype of Asian-Americans has a basis in fact, anecdotes of stupidheads and math disabled Asians notwithstanding. No one seems to claim that this is based on “racial” factors, just interested in whether or not it is a selection bias or a result of family values and pressures or cultural expectations or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what. I think **Gobear’s** post is very smack dab, dead-on. I have colleagues from other Asian nations who say that their parents pressured them heavily when it came to maths and sciences – they were expected to get no less than a solid A. For “arts” stuff, including languages, social sciences, there was not so much pressure. There was still a huge expectation to do well, but nothing like parental demands of math and science achievement. In the U.S. there is a lot of hero worship for outstanding athletes - hence you get the soccer mom’s and dad’s who put tremendous pressure on their kids to be “winners”. Or coaches who make kids practice, practice, practice – trying to get them to be the very best they can be in their sport. It’s a very similar phenomenon. My colleague was pressured in a very similar way to excel in math and science. His parents didn’t want him to be the star quaterback, he was supposed to be the star physicist. You think Soccer Mom’s are scary, just wait 'til you meet a Science Mom! **MAFA** don’t forget, GPA doesn’t necessarily reflect “natural aptitude.” I completley _suck_ at math, but was able to get A’s purely as a result of insane dilligence and tremendous discipline. I scored quite decently on the math component of the SAT’s not because I was inherently good at math (I mean, I _really_ suck!) but because I invested much, _much_ more time and effort into it than most other students. I was also pressured by imposed standards, luckily I was the one who imposed them on myself (I had As in everything else, so I took it personally that I sucked at math). If there are cultural influences for standards of “achievement”, you’re going to have people working extremely hard to meet the expectations of their family – whether if it’s training 8 hours a day to be _the_ football hero, or locking yourself away doing homework so you can be _the_ math champ. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/30 "2004-02-14T18:33:07Z")
> [@MAFA](#): > > What dichotomy? \<\\> ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/31 "2004-02-14T18:35:37Z")
:smack: Sorry **DSeid** didn’t give you proper credit. I _meant_ that **Gobear’s** post AND yours seemed (IMHO) to be on target. ---
**Author:** ![toomuchtv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@toomuchtv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toomuchtv)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/32 "2004-02-14T18:47:46Z")
Maybe this makes me a bigot. I hope not, but you never know when you’re commenting on someone else’s ethnic group. Eye of the beholder, and all that. I think that that many Asian kids excel at math and science for the same reason that many Jewish kids grow up to be doctors, lawyers, scientists, CPAs, and… talmudic scholars. I think both sets of kids come from a culture that traditionally and historically places a high value on education, scholarship, learning. They may get teased by people outide their own group for being nerds, etc. But good grades are rewarded with approval within their own ethnic group. By their parents, mostly, but by the rest of their support group as well. Their community as a whole. I’ve seen more than one TV news special about kids who try to get good grades being accused by their peers of “acting white”. None of these kids were Asian or Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![CadburyAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@CadburyAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CadburyAngel)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/33 "2004-02-14T19:28:53Z")
> [@MAFA](#): > > [http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm](http://www.mathwizz.com/papers/parentreport.htm) > > [http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html](http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/18/news/story2.html) > > [http://www.ceousa.org/va.html](http://www.ceousa.org/va.html) > > Would you like another? The first link is good enough for me: students educated in China outperform Chinese-Canadian students outperform non-Chinese Canadians. In the article, it is attributed to the students having memorized the most basic computations of the problem (14 divided by 2, for example) and being thus freed to consider the rest of the problem and proceed more quickly. The smaller but still significant percentage of Chinese-Canadian students who could outperform the non-Chinese group could quite easily be explained by the tutoring efforts of their parents, teaching them the same memorization system that they presumably learned in the same Chinese school system that educated the highest-performing group. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/34 "2004-02-14T20:10:52Z")
Why is this in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/35 "2004-02-14T20:20:55Z")
> [@gluteus maximus](#): > > Why is this in the Pit? Perhaps because **MAFA** (say it out loud, folks ;)), our new friend, was expecting to, ah, provoke certain sorts of responses? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/36 "2004-02-14T20:33:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … or difficulty in achieving in language-based venues so focusing intellectual energy in math related ones or what. … i’m guessing this may be the reason for some. when your native language is not english, math would be way easier to understand (and to therefore concentrate your studies on) than a language which you would not use frequently. given a choice between english and maths, which would a non-native speaker find easier to study for? the foreign language with it’s varied rules and nuances that some people still cannot agree on; or mathematics, the science of numbers with it’s strict rules and clear concepts? btw, i hear that they are adjusting the SAT to add in additional english language modules, presumably to balance out those who depend on maths to bring up their SAT scores. is this true? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/37 "2004-02-14T22:01:16Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > Same reason Jews are so good with money. Sorry, I just had to comment on this. I’m Jewish, and you’ve never seen anyone who is worse with money than me. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/38 "2004-02-14T22:05:04Z")
> [@FoamFighter](#): > > Sorry, I just had to comment on this. I’m Jewish, and you’ve never seen anyone who is worse with money than me. It was a joke. son, I say a joke. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/39 "2004-02-14T22:56:04Z")
All I know is, my parents made me memorize my multiplication tables at the tender age of eight and recite them by rote. To this day I can’t do 5 x 7 without slipping into Chinese… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168/40 "2004-02-14T23:16:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You can see this fact at work in other areas as well. Black men got all the basketball skills that Asians lack. Lesbian women got all the softball skills that geek high school boys lack. So, what did the lesbian men get? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-and-math/229168.md?page=3)