# "Asians can't fly!" comments after GE235 crash **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882 "2015-02-05T13:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Archeonomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Archeonomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archeonomist)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/21 "2015-02-06T01:09:27Z")
You’re pretty fly for an Asian guy ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/22 "2015-02-06T02:39:06Z")
thankfully, i didn’t notice such comments. instead, there were mainly kudos for minimising casualties and “not another asian airline” posts. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/23 "2015-02-06T03:41:35Z")
Reminds me of [this classic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0zKlbTujqY). ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/24 "2015-02-06T03:44:12Z")
> [@Billdo](#): > > Don’t forget Malaysia Airlines 17 that crashed in Ukraine. The pilot was obviously incompetent if he couldn’t land safely with a surface to air missile stuck up his tailpipe. It probably was radar-guided, not a heat-seeker, so it probably hit somewhere other than the tailpipe (or engine, to be precise). I get your point! I’m just playing along. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/25 "2015-02-06T05:44:31Z")
Anyone that thinks Asians can’t fly weren’t at Pearl Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/26 "2015-02-06T06:03:59Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Anyone that thinks Asians can’t fly weren’t at Pearl Harbor. Later in the war there were a lot of their countrymen who kept crashing into US Navy ships. Maybe they just took the best pilots along on the trip to Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/27 "2015-02-06T07:13:01Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Later in the war there were a lot of their countrymen who kept crashing into US Navy ships **DELIBERATELY AS KAMIKAZE SUICIDE BOMBERS**. Maybe they just took the best pilots along on the trip to Hawaii. Fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/28 "2015-02-06T07:19:10Z")
Well, those Asian airplanes all look alike to me. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/29 "2015-02-06T11:27:15Z")
The main British Radio station, Radio 1, is in trouble after a guest on a show made a joke about the crash: > **[The 'offensive' Keith Lemon joke about the Taiwan plane crash the BBC...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/nick-grimshaw-apologises-for-airing-offensive-keith-lemon-joke-about-the-taiwan-plane-crash-that-killed-31-people-10026747.html)** > > Lemon, who is played by 41-year-old comedian Leigh Francis, was criticised by listeners for comparing the pilot to Lady Gaga I’m not sure but I don’t think it is especially funny: \*BBC Radio 1 DJ Nick Grimshaw was forced to apologise to listeners who were offended by a joke, made by guest Keith Lemon, about the plane crash in Taiwan that killed 31 people. Lemon, who is played by 41-year-old comedian Leigh Francis, compared the pilot of the doomed TransAsia Airways Light GE235 to Lady Gaga. “Did you see that plane that crashed? What’s going on there? What happened there? How can you crash a plane into cars on the road?,” he said. Radio 1 breakfast host Nick Grimshaw Radio 1 breakfast host Nick Grimshaw “How come the co-pilot didn’t say, ‘You’re going too low you know? You’re going too low.’ “And him to go, ‘Yeah, I know. I shouldn’t go this low should I?’ “Can you just stop living on the edge like Lady Gaga? Wow, it was incredible.”\* :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/30 "2015-02-06T13:20:49Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Until the investigation is complete, we actually don’t have an answer for either of these points. > > I think the “Asians can’t fly” is idiotic and racist and only racist idiots would say it, but we don’t have a real answer yet on what caused the crash. > > 1. Did the pilot accept a plane with weight/engine conditions made takeoff/rotate airspeed well below the engine out minimum control speed (Vmca1)? > 2. Did the pilot contribute to the flameout? > 3. If they were above Vmca1, did the pilot not put in enough rudder or bank angle to control the aircraft? > 4. Did he put in too much throttle, too quickly, causing the plane to develop an adverse yaw? > 5. Did he move the flaps, causing the aircraft to lose lift and settle? > > I’m sure there are many other scenarios that would show the pilot as a hero, who overcame an engine out and saved as many people as he could. But I think jumping to a conclusion this early is just making a guess (full disclosure: I threw out a guess in an ealier thread, but it was definitely a WAG). Latest update is that before the crash, engine 2 flamed out and then engine 1 propeller was feathered. which would leave the airplane with no thrust at all. It is possible that the number one engine was feathered by mistake, instead of engine two, leading to the crash. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/31 "2015-02-06T13:48:16Z")
Using a single plane crash in which mechanical failure seems to have been the primary cause as evidence that Asians can’t fly is pretty lame. OTOH, Korean culture specifically has been found to be a poor match for the kind of teamwork - [crew resource management (CRM)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management) - that has been shown to be most effective at minimizing crew error. There are two specific aspects involved: -the authority structure in the cockpit. In Korean culture, you, the underling, dare not do anything that suggests your superior is anything short of an infallible diety. Sure, maybe your captain has the plane 200’ below glideslope and doesn’t seem to notice, but you better just watch your tongue; you _really_ don’t want to embarrass him; your best bet is to just ride it out and hope he notices before it’s too late. If things get really dicey, you might go out on a limb and provide some kind of cryptic hint. -the listener-oriented communication style, in which the burden for correctly understanding an utterance is placed primarily on the listener instead of the speaker. So your captain is bringing you in way below glideslope, and you make your cryptic hint - and instead of making sure the captain got the hint, you just figure you’ve said your piece, and now it’s up to him to figure it out. For a long time Korean Air had a horrible safety record, but some time in the 90s officials at the company sought to improve it. Recognizing these important causative factors, they drilled their flight crews on the tenets of CRM: junior officers were trained to voice any concerns they had to their seniors (up to and including pointing out that the boss is just plain wrong) in a clear-but-diplomatic manner, and senior officers were trained to accept and consider such input without taking offense. It worked: these days, KA has one of the best safety records in the world. Asiana, Korea’s other national airline, needs to take a page from KA’s playbook. When Asiana 214 crashed in 2013, the junior pilot who was flying the plane did not feel like he was up to the task - but did not feel comfortable expressing this to the senior officers in the cockpit. If he had been able to express that, maybe his seniors would have watched more closely, or not put him in charge of the landing. As for GE235…we’ll see what the investigations say, but it sounds like there were serious engine problems. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/32 "2015-02-06T14:07:26Z")
What’s been reported so far makes me wonder if it’s another case of “Captain-san.” Apparently the captain got out of his flight seat to fix some equipment problem - flip a breaker? - when it may have been more sensible for the less-experienced co-pilot to do that. The Korean tendency to respect seniors (especially air captains) right into the mountain has precedents. The co-pilot may have been unable, on several levels, to say, “No, \*you \*fly, I’ll go flip.” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/33 "2015-02-06T14:18:14Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > What’s been reported so far makes me wonder if it’s another case of “Captain-san.” Apparently the captain got out of his flight seat to fix some equipment problem - flip a breaker? - when it may have been more sensible for the less-experienced co-pilot to do that. The Korean tendency to respect seniors (especially air captains) right into the mountain has precedents. The co-pilot may have been unable, on several levels, to say, “No, \*you \*fly, I’ll go flip.” Just so we’re clear, Transasia Airways is a Taiwanese airline, and GE235 was piloted by Taiwanese citizens. I don’t know whether Taiwanese culture is conducive to good CRM practices or not, or whether crew error had a role in the GE235 crash or not. I brought up Korea and KAL to make the point that while “Asians can’t fly” is stupidly broad claim and is not supported by the GE235 crash, it’s not 100% false, either. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/34 "2015-02-06T14:29:32Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Latest update is that before the crash, engine 2 flamed out and then engine 1 propeller was feathered. which would leave the airplane with no thrust at all. > It is possible that the number one engine was feathered by mistake, instead of engine two, leading to the crash. Wouldn’t be the first time an incorrect engine was shut down. Yikes. I’m looking forward to reading the investigation; trying to glide a plane with no engines through a populated area sounds insane. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/35 "2015-02-06T14:32:42Z")
And **Machine Elf** , I had friends who took lucrative jobs flying with the Saudis; they said that the hierarchical structure (at that time, at least), made flying scary. If one of the pilots was from the Royal family, telling them to go around after screwing up an approach was near impossible. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/36 "2015-02-06T16:17:59Z")
Taiwan pilots ‘faced problem with one engine, restarted the other’ \*(Reuters) - The crew of a twin-propeller TransAsia plane faced a problem with one engine but restarted the other, investigators said on Friday,… …The right engine entered a state called “auto-feather”, in which it reduced thrust to the propeller, Thomas Wang, managing director of the council, said. The flight crew then reduced acceleration to the left engine, turned it off and then attempted to restart it, but it did not gain enough thrust. …He said the aircraft could fly with one engine. The plane was powered by two Pratt & Whitney PW127M engines. Pratt & Whitney is part of United Technologies. A fuller report on the crash will be available in next 30 days, with a final report expected in the next three to six months.\* [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/06/us-taiwan-airplane-idUSKBN0LA04N20150206](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/06/us-taiwan-airplane-idUSKBN0LA04N20150206) Oops. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/37 "2015-02-06T16:26:57Z")
[Moderating] **russian heel** , it’s against the board rules to edit another poster’s text inside the quote box, even when done as a joke or when the edit it clearly labeled. Please do not do that again. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/38 "2015-02-06T17:40:59Z")
Sum ting wong with people who are racist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/39 "2015-02-08T05:59:06Z")
I’m considering booking Malaysia Airlines for every leg of travel in my quest to circumnavigate the globe. Who wants to ride with me? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882/40 "2015-02-08T16:11:19Z")
Me, if you’re payin’. I know people who have flown Malaysia since the crashes and lived to tell the tale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asians-cant-fly-comments-after-ge235-crash/711882.md?page=3)