# Aside from cost and ill will, what makes a border fence a bad idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497 "2016-03-10T01:26:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/1 "2016-03-10T01:26:01Z")
A few questions, one of which is better suited to GQ: Aside from the issue of cost (billions of dollars) and ill will (it’s a hostile move), what other factors make a US-Mexico border fence a bad idea? Second question: The fact that Trump is proposing a fence implies that there isn’t a fence at the moment, so what is at the border at the moment? A line marker boundary? Also, what do most national borders look like - mere signposts? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/2 "2016-03-10T01:45:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Aside from the issue of cost (billions of dollars) and ill will (it’s a hostile move), what other factors make a US-Mexico border fence a bad idea? Yes…it’s a bad idea. Just from a practical perspective it wouldn’t work. > [@](#): > > Second question: The fact that Trump is proposing a fence implies that there isn’t a fence at the moment, so what is at the border at the moment? Empty desert in a lot of it. There are border check points, some permanent, some transient, on many of the roads, and there are border patrol folks who, well, patrol, the region…similar to in other countries and on other borders (such as the Canadian border). There are fences in some parts, and even walls in some parts, but there is no Great Wall of America that traverses the whole border. You’d kind of have to come out here to see why it’s such a stupid idea and wouldn’t work…I certainly wish Trump would, so he’d shut up about it already. > [@](#): > > Also, what do most national borders look like - mere signposts? Depends on how friendly the two countries are. There are mine fields and machine gun nests on the ones between North and South Korea, for instance. 😛 It’s really going to depend on how the countries feel about each other, though. I’ve seen both more and less border security to what we currently have on the US/Mexico border. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/3 "2016-03-10T01:45:10Z")
Trump isn’t proposing a fence, he’s proposing a wall. You know, like [the one they had in Berlin](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/04/1415107236126_wps_56_CWAWNG_jpg.jpg). In a lot of places[there’s already a fence](http://9502-presscdn-0-95.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border-patrol.jpg), although I believe in some remote places there’s really not much more than markers. I doubt a wall is going to do much good when people are prepared to do stuff like, you know, [dig a tunnel.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/2676766/Air-conditioned-drugs-smuggling-tunnel-discovered-on-US-Mexico-border.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/4 "2016-03-10T02:03:26Z")
Aside from tunnels, another reason a wall wouldn’t work is that a good percentage (perhaps forty percent, perhaps more) of illegal immigrants arrive by air. Many overstay a visa. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/5 "2016-03-10T02:58:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Aside from tunnels, another reason a wall wouldn’t work is that a good percentage (perhaps forty percent, perhaps more) of illegal immigrants arrive by air. Many overstay a visa. And, of course, if there _were_ a serious wall, the numbers arriving by air would be greater. But not even Trump’s supporters think he’s serious about building a wall, do they? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/6 "2016-03-10T03:03:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And, of course, if there _were_ a serious wall, the numbers arriving by air would be greater. > > But not even Trump’s supporters think he’s serious about building a wall, do they? _Mythbusters_ already disproved the catapult thing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/7 "2016-03-10T03:26:03Z")
Aside from the sheer impracticality and inevitable porousness of such an endeavor, it’s a bad idea simply because significant parts of the U.S. economy are actually _dependent_ on cheap foreign labour. There’s a certain chest-beating satisfaction in going all nativist, I gather, but the agricultural sector is going to lose out big, leading to increased food prices. There’s political gain for a candidate who _says_ he’ll build a wall. It goes negative when a elected official tries to follow-through. Trump is proving a master of the\* idea\*, not so much the _plan_. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/8 "2016-03-10T03:59:59Z")
Air travel has been mentioned. Also, there are boats, rafts and so on. Something like the Berlin Wall could be built to hinder land travel. Do you want to build something equivalent to the Berlin Wall along the entire coastline as well as land borders? I want to see your estimate of costs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/9 "2016-03-10T11:48:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A few questions, one of which is better suited to GQ: > > Aside from the issue of cost (billions of dollars) and ill will (it’s a hostile move), what other factors make a US-Mexico border fence a bad idea? > > Second question: The fact that Trump is proposing a fence implies that there isn’t a fence at the moment, so what is at the border at the moment? A line marker boundary? Also, what do most national borders look like - mere signposts? Most borders I’ve been across have border crossing stations on roads, bridges and other points of entry, but no barrier or even marking on the terrain. The exception is for militarized areas (like the India-Pakistan border), which have fortifications or military controlled no-go zones near the border. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/10 "2016-03-10T12:19:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Aside from the sheer impracticality and inevitable porousness of such an endeavor, it’s a bad idea simply because significant parts of the U.S. economy are actually _dependent_ on cheap foreign labour. There’s a certain chest-beating satisfaction in going all nativist, I gather, but the agricultural sector is going to lose out big, leading to increased food prices. > > There’s political gain for a candidate who _says_ he’ll build a wall. It goes negative when a elected official tries to follow-through. Trump is proving a master of the\* idea\*, not so much the _plan_. I wonder who picks all the grapes at Trump Winery? The owner of the winery I worked for was very dependent on migrant workers and so wasn’t too keen on Trumps plan even though he’s a republican. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/11 "2016-03-10T13:30:52Z")
They’ve been working on a Border Fence for some time in Texas. The \*Texas Observer \*(warning–here be Liberals!) has gathered [some articles on the situation](http://www.texasobserver.org/life-along-the-border-wall/). Community leaders, environmentalists & many of the actual landowners involved have objections. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/12 "2016-03-10T13:54:32Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I wonder who picks all the grapes at Trump Winery? Hey, those are the best grapes in the world! They know who’s boss! They’ll pick themselves if I tell them to! Trump 2016! ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/13 "2016-03-10T13:57:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Aside from the sheer impracticality and inevitable porousness of such an endeavor, it’s a bad idea simply because significant parts of the U.S. economy are actually _dependent_ on cheap foreign labour. There’s a certain chest-beating satisfaction in going all nativist, I gather, but the agricultural sector is going to lose out big, leading to increased food prices. There are plenty of able bodied Americans who should be doing theses jobs. The phrase “jobs Americans won’t do” angers me on so many levels. All honest work should be respected. This is a societal issue. I recall speaking to a landlord who was cleaning an apartment to get it ready to be rented. I said, " You should get your grandson to help you out.“The landlord claimed she tried but her grandson said, " He doesn’t do Mexican work.” I replied, “If my son ever said something like that, I’d slap him across the face.” She sighed, “I wanted to.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/14 "2016-03-10T14:02:39Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > There are plenty of able bodied Americans who should be doing theses jobs. The phrase “jobs Americans won’t do” angers me on so many levels. All honest work should be respected. This is a societal issue. Okay, so what’s Trump’s plan for fixing this societal issue? Or even addressing it? Or even recognizing it? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/15 "2016-03-10T14:20:11Z")
Why aren’t millions of North Koreans building tunnels under the border in order to escape to South Korea? Seems that border is pretty effective. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/16 "2016-03-10T14:23:17Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > There are plenty of able bodied Americans who should be doing theses jobs. The phrase “jobs Americans won’t do” angers me on so many levels. All honest work should be respected. This is a societal issue. All honest work should be respected - I agree. But this has little to do with respect. You respect the work that the immigrants are doing on the fields. But do you want to do it yourself? I suppose not. Neither do the “able bodied Americans” that you say should be doing it. At least not for the pay that is being offered. “Fine”, you may say. “Let employers pay competitive wages then.” It is not that easy. If you hike wages to pay the able bodied, but expensive Americans, the prices at which goods can be produced increase - possibly up to a point where the goods can no longer be sold. If a Californian winemaker is forced to double the price of his product, customers may suddenly find it attractive to buy imported fare instead, and the winemaker may have to go out of business. Trump likes to present himself as the creator of jobs. His plans might very well have the opposite effect. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/17 "2016-03-10T14:28:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, so what’s Trump’s plan for fixing this societal issue? Or even addressing it? > > Or even recognizing it? If I were Trump, I would incentivize young people to take these jobs by matching their wages with college or trade school tuition. Teen Black unemployment is 31 to 50% depending on how you calculate it. These jobs aren’t easy and these teens will be even more motivated to get educated so they don’t have to do labor intensive jobs. I know many older African American people who bemoan the work ethic of their younger generation. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/18 "2016-03-10T14:30:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why aren’t millions of North Koreans building tunnels under the border in order to escape to South Korea? Seems that border is pretty effective. The 4000m wide DMZ which is off limits to everyone might have something to do with that. The minefields might too. But the most important fact is probably that unlike Mexican authorities North Koreans will have everyone shot who tries to leave the country without permission. You suggest to copy that approach? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/19 "2016-03-10T14:36:10Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > The 4000m wide DMZ which is off limits to everyone might have something to do with that. The minefields might too. But the most important fact is probably that unlike Mexican authorities North Koreans will have everyone shot who tries to leave the country without permission. You suggest to copy that approach? I’m suggesting nothing, simply asking how the border works between the Koreas so well when many people are adamantly against a wall because “it won’t work” ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497/20 "2016-03-10T14:37:33Z")
There is currently about 650 miles of the 2,000 mile border with Mexico, divided by a fence. There are varying types of fencing used within that 650 miles. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aside-from-cost-and-ill-will-what-makes-a-border-fence-a-bad-idea/748497.md?page=2)